Football Lads Alliance

[Fraggy]

In my opinion, if you want to make a difference, fight radical interpretation of religion, rather than the religion itself. Promote tolerance of other peoples belief systems, whatever they may be. And recognise every human beings right to follow whatever religion they choose to, even if it doesn't fit with your belief system.

I thought that was what was being done?
I don't know anyone who has an issue with a regular law abiding Muslim; but if we just sit back & stay silent, then the issue (IMO) will escalate at a faster pace than it is currently.
I believe that human rights are well and truly being observed in reference to religious beliefs. You only have to look back to 2001 when many people in The U.K put down Jedism as their religion on a census.
In 2006, when The Racial and Religious Hatred Act was introduced in The U.K, our government tried to exclude followers of Jedism. The amendment was subsequently withdrawn, the proposer explaining that it was a joke to illustrate a point that defining religious belief in legislation is difficult.

I moved over to Canada in 2006 as a permanent resident; I finally took my citizenship exam last year after I was 100% certain that Canada was for me. I wanted to make sure this country represented my beliefs & that I was happy with all aspects of being a Canadian.
There has been times in recent history where minorities have tried to have the word 'God' and 'Sons' taken out of The National Anthem.
Thankfully these demands made no traction.

Yes we do currently have a very liberal government that has made a few questionable decisions since coming into power, but I can assure you that the majority of Canadians are not looking to change anything. Recently I have seen a lot of bumper stickers on cars of The Canadian flag, with the logo 'Fit In or F**k Off' - The fact that I was refused a registration plate that was 'QPR FC UK' because it was deemed as an offensive word (FC UK not QPR), but these bumper stickers are gaining in popularity, tell you all you need to know, that even old bill stand behind the regular Canadian.

Also take into account, that we are able to buy guns up here as easy as Americans, but our gun crime is a fraction of what it is in The States. Yes there is at least 1 person a day up here shot, but compared to The States it is minimal.

[Tarbie]

But you could also argue that tolerance, dialogue or moderation does not work anymore, and that our civilization is already collapsing too rapidly for that.

And you could argue that the concern is no longer about the future, but that the situation is rotten right now.

Just as two small examples:

1. We are persecuting heretics today and the enlightenment is already dead: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...-a3649976.html

2.

So what are you saying Stanley? The world is at war, and we all need to pick a side?

I agree that there is a lot of bad stuff going on in the world, but it's not gone too far to be fixed. I personally just don't believe it will be fixed by hatred. Instead by understanding, education and tolerance.

Don't get the point of the 2 examples you posted. The 2nd is a lady in a burka working security at an airport. I really don't understand what significance there is in that picture.

As for the article about the guy on the Qatar Airways flight writing an offensive letter to 2 Muslim ladies signed off 'death to Allah'. Send him to jail I say, purely for being a bloody idiot. Everyone who travels to the Middle East knows the score, and should know that the draconian legal system there will come down on them like a ton of bricks for that type of thing!

[Fraggy]

Everyone who travels to the Middle East knows the score,

That's where you lose me.
So it's ok for one religion to be ridiculed, but should anyine dare take Allah's name in vein, then they sbould be locked up or flogged?
This is the current problem we face; policitical correctness should apply to all or to none.
Its the 21st century, the sort of craziness that has descended upon The U.K. in recent years has gone beyond a joke.
Its one thing for a nation to impose its belief system within it's own country/region, but when that same belief system is forced onto others with drastic consequences for those that don't obey, then something needs to be done/said.
I know its been said before, but most of The World sat back and ignored Nazism, by the time that we and others responded, millions had paid with their life's.

[Tarbie]

That's where you lose me.
So it's ok for one religion to be ridiculed, but should anyine dare take Allah's name in vein, then they sbould be locked up or flogged?
This is the current problem we face; policitical correctness should apply to all or to none.
Its the 21st century, the sort of craziness that has descended upon The U.K. in recent years has gone beyond a joke.
Its one thing for a nation to impose its belief system within it's own country/region, but when that same belief system is forced onto others with drastic consequences for those that don't obey, then something needs to be done/said.
I know its been said before, but most of The World sat back and ignored Nazism, by the time that we and others responded, millions had paid with their life's.

Didn't at any stage say I agreed with the draconian policing in the Middle East. Only that if somebody is going to travel there, they should be aware that they will be punished harshly for such an offence.

I've lived in the Middle East for 10 years across 2 stints. A lot of my close mates live their. It's possible to lead a totally Western life without too many worries. But there are some things that you just wouldn't do. That article being a classic example!

[Fraggy]

Didn't at any stage say I agreed with the draconian policing in the Middle East. Only that if somebody is going to travel there, they should be aware that they will be punished harshly for such an offence.

I've lived in the Middle East for 10 years across 2 stints. A lot of my close mates live their. It's possible to lead a totally Western life without too many worries. But there are some things that you just wouldn't do. That article being a classic example!

Sorry Tarbs, I didn't mean to imply that you agreed with the draconian policing in The Middle East.
The fact that they are able to run their region in such a manner, & if you move there or visit, you have to adhere to such policing, but others can come to the west and then insist on changes to the way of life in their new country is hypocritical; but obviously, as long as certain western governments allow this type of behaviour, you can't really blame them.
Where I currently live, if I dared ask for conditions that were outside the realms of everyday life in Canada, I would be told that the lake is very deep. If I continued to force the issue, I would actually find out how deep the lake actually is; & rightfully so.

[Hubble]

But you could also argue that tolerance, dialogue or moderation does not work anymore, and that our civilization is already collapsing too rapidly for that.

And you could argue that the concern is no longer about the future, but that the situation is rotten right now.

Just as two small examples:

1. We are persecuting heretics today and the enlightenment is already dead: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...-a3649976.html

2.

Hold on there just a minute Stan: 'we' are not "persecuting heretics" and enlightenment is far from dead! Just because there are backwards, anti-enlightenment states like Qatar or Saudi Arabia does not mean that in the slightest. IMO, what is happening is that all these things that were often unknown or sparsely reported in the past have become widespread and well-known in recent times. The information age is upon us, but it's still in its infancy. What this means is that in relative terms the world is only just coming to terms with the apparently vast differences in dominant ideologies of various States or cultures. This is a transition period, where we are still experiencing the shock of all of this and ideologies and cultures are struggling to catch up with the sociological impact. I think things will adjust over time to compensate for theses apparent extreme differences and we will see things becoming more moderate, worldwide. The apparent rise of fundamentalism will not last, IMO.

[Northolt_Rs]

Hold on there just a minute Stan: 'we' are not "persecuting heretics" and enlightenment is far from dead! Just because there are backwards, anti-enlightenment states like Qatar or Saudi Arabia does not mean that in the slightest. IMO, what is happening is that all these things that were often unknown or sparsely reported in the past have become widespread and well-known in recent times. The information age is upon us, but it's still in its infancy. What this means is that in relative terms the world is only just coming to terms with the apparently vast differences in dominant ideologies of various States or cultures. This is a transition period, where we are still experiencing the shock of all of this and ideologies and cultures are struggling to catch up with the sociological impact. I think things will adjust over time to compensate for theses apparent extreme differences and we will see things becoming more moderate, worldwide. The apparent rise of fundamentalism will not last, IMO.

Or things may go the other way and become more isolated and more extreme.

[Hubble]

Or things may go the other way and become more isolated and more extreme.

Yes, they might. In an infinite universe, anything is possible, and now physicists say there are multiple universes, therefore multiple or even infinite parallel 'realities'. But I digress. I think it's unlikely things will get more extreme - certainly in the longer term it's very unlikely as things always tend towards the norm, the middle way, because at bottom we're social creatures and we want to survive. Death cults and monotheism are all very well, but in the long view of history they're no more than fads. And although our media is full of war, more war, terror and death, in plain fact this is the safest time in modern human history (believe it or not, it's true). I think the media lens distorts our view of things, so it appears everything's awful out there, whereas in point of fact it's really not that bad at all.

Sapiens, by Noah Yuval Harari is excellent on all this and a must read IMHO.

[Stanley]

I think things will adjust over time to compensate for theses apparent extreme differences and we will see things becoming more moderate, worldwide. The apparent rise of fundamentalism will not last, IMO.

Maybe so, but what of the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet, and projected to be?



And what of its stated caliphate aims and ambitions?

Have you read the likes of intellectual heavyweights Gad Saad and Sam Harris? They hold a very different position to you on the matter.

Some argue that it needs to be challenged directly, not with hatred (as suggested above) but with reason, intellect and logic.

Aren't the Football Lads Alliance simply adopting Elie Wiesel's sage advice?:

[Hubble]

Maybe so, but what of the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet, and projected to be?



And what of its stated caliphate aims and ambitions?

Have you read the likes of intellectual heavyweights Gad Saad and Sam Harris? They hold a very different position to you on the matter.

Some argue that it needs to be challenged directly, not with hatred (as suggested above) but with reason, intellect and logic.

Aren't the Football Lads Alliance simply adopting Elie Wiesel's sage advice?:

I doubt they're following Wiesel's advice, and I don't think it's necessarily sage either. If you look at any global religion, Christianity for example, the trend is always towards moderation, ultimately. Islam has many factions, but I think in the end it will become a moderate religion like Christianity (although it too still has its fundamentalist sects of course). I expect muslim majority countries to become secular or quasi secular in the end. That's my take on it, for what it's worth. The fire of monotheistic ardour will burn itself out. I can't give you a time scale of course. But I'd like to remind you what I said before, that the media lens distorts reality, and the fact is, despite the endless torrent of fear-mongering, this is the safest time to be alive in modern human history.

[Tarbie]

Sorry Tarbs, I didn't mean to imply that you agreed with the draconian policing in The Middle East.
The fact that they are able to run their region in such a manner, & if you move there or visit, you have to adhere to such policing, but others can come to the west and then insist on changes to the way of life in their new country is hypocritical; but obviously, as long as certain western governments allow this type of behaviour, you can't really blame them.
Where I currently live, if I dared ask for conditions that were outside the realms of everyday life in Canada, I would be told that the lake is very deep. If I continued to force the issue, I would actually find out how deep the lake actually is; & rightfully so.

I agree with all of that. But that is the bed that we've made for ourselves in the West.

I place the blame firmly on the years of the British Empire, when we went around the world popping a flag in the ground and forcing our way of life onto everyone else. Now it's generally agreed that the whole concept of imperialism is totally wrong. Those nations that were the biggest culprits for empire building have been trying to make a mends ever since, and have eroded their own culture in doing so.

[corbray]

Maybe so, but what of the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet, and projected to be?

islam does have a lot of people leaving though, there are a lot of closeted ex muslims out there but for obvious reasons its hard for them to come out. even in the west ex muslims have it incredibly hard, if they come out to their family that they no longer follow islam they get ostracised by their family so i tend to take the fastest growing religion with a pinch of salt.

it is a barbaric religion as its core though and no one can convince me otherwise. sam harris and maajid nawaz changed my view on islam completely. muslims aren't so the problem as they're people at the end of the day and even the devout ones find it difficult to grasp a lot of the violent aspects within islam but the thing that makes it so difficult to reform islam is islam is already supposed to be the perfect and final religion so any attempt at reforming islam or bringing in secularism is difficult but there are muslims out there who're trying to do just that, even in saudi arabia the new crown prince is trying to modernize the country and the peoples views there.

this is a very good video by nasser dashti who gives a great interview on the problems with muslims and islam and how it can be modernized.

[Stanley]

The thing I've never understood is why is it that you rarely (if ever) hear the left calling out the outright barbarism, sexism, homophobia, misogyny, female genital mutilation, honour-killing, public beheadings, stonings to death, suicide bombing, limb amputating, throwing gays off the top of buildings etc etc etc in some of these Islamic nations and by their sympathisers, and yet they are instead so quick to blame it all on the ills of corrupt western civilisation.

Moreover they are the first people to shout and scream about it if just a fraction of such crimes took place in their own western societies, or the merest suggestion of it. The only reason to me it seems is out of fear of being branded Islamophobic and non-PC; and because it doesn't accord with their safe and right-on virtue-signalling and social-justice-warrior mindset. So all they ever do is bash and blame the wicked nasty western suppressors for it all.

[Tarbie]

The thing I've never understood is why is it that you rarely (if ever) hear the left calling out the outright barbarism, sexism, homophobia, misogyny, female genital mutilation, honour-killing, public beheadings, stonings to death, suicide bombing, limb amputating, throwing gays off the top of buildings etc etc etc in some of these Islamic nations and by their sympathisers, and yet they are instead so quick to blame it all on the ills of corrupt western civilisation.

Moreover they are the first people to shout and scream about it if just a fraction of such crimes took place in their own western societies, or the merest suggestion of it. The only reason to me it seems is out of fear of being branded Islamophobic and non-PC; and because it doesn't accord with their safe and right-on virtue-signalling and social-justice-warrior mindset. So all they ever do is bash and blame the wicked nasty western suppressors for it all.

Agree with a lot of that.

I actually get annoyed with this new breed of young left. My sister is one of them, and actually a Labour Counselor. She spouts all this lefty PC stuff like she knows everything, and she's barely set foot outside of the South East of England in her life. I actually wish that people would go and experience the world and see what other cultures are about before they get on their soap box and start telling other people what's right and wrong.

[Stanley]

Good summary of it here Tarbie:

"Regressive left" (also formulated as "regressive liberals" and "regressive leftists") is a political epithet, used as a pejorative to describe a section of left-wing politics who are accused of paradoxically holding reactionary views by their tolerance of illiberal principles and ideologies, particularly tolerance of Islamism, for the sake of multiculturalism and cultural relativism.

British anti-Islamism activist Maajid Nawaz used the term in 2012 in his memoir Radical: My Journey out of Islamist Extremism to describe "well-meaning liberals and ideologically driven leftists" in the United Kingdom who naïvely and "ignorantly pandered to" Islamists and helped Islamist ideology to gain acceptance. In a 2015 video presentation on the Internet forum Big Think, Nawaz elaborated on the meaning of the term, saying that it describes "a section of the left" that has "an inherent hesitation to challenge some of the bigotry that can occur within minority communities ... for the sake of political correctness, for the sake of tolerating what they believe is other cultures and respecting different lifestyles".

Political talk-show hosts such as Bill Maher and Dave Rubin, as well as New Atheist writers like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins, are among those who have used the term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regressive_left

Sometimes I think they are just as much part of the problem.