So are we fans of empires or not?

[Hubble]

For an empire (In the way we recognise the term) to thrive there has to be domination/exploitation. So it depends how that sits with you. It also has distinct military connotations. Comes from the Latin Imperium


Also democracy isn't a legacy of European Empires

It is in India and many African states Hovis....

[Hove Ranger]

But the idea of democracy predates any european empire

[Hubble]

But the idea of democracy predates any european empire

That wasn't my point mate, what I said was that the empires left that legacy.... which they did.

[Stanley]

The rise and fall of the latest iteration

In this case the American Empire.

One of the main roles of art is to be a reflection of society.

Don Henley expressed the rise and fall of the North American empire in two allegorical classics, recorded 30 years apart.

The first was called 'The Last Resort', depicting the rise:



"The Last Resort"

She came from Providence,
the one in Rhode Island
Where the old world shadows hang
heavy in the air
She packed her hopes and dreams
like a refugee
Just as her father came across the sea

She heard about a place people were smilin'
They spoke about the red man's way,
and how they loved the land
And they came from everywhere
to the Great Divide
Seeking a place to stand
or a place to hide

Down in the crowded bars,
out for a good time,
Can't wait to tell you all,
what it's like up there
And they called it paradise
I don't know why
Somebody laid the mountains low
while the town got high

Then the chilly winds blew down
Across the desert
through the canyons of the coast,
to the Malibu
Where the pretty people play,
hungry for power
to light their neon way
and give them things to do

Some rich men came and raped the land,
Nobody caught 'em
Put up a bunch of ugly boxes,
and Jesus people bought 'em
And they called it paradise
The place to be
They watched the hazy sun, sinking in the sea

You can leave it all behind
and sail to Lahaina
just like the missionaries did, so many years ago
They even brought a neon sign said "Jesus is coming"
Brought the white man's burden down
Brought the white man's reign

Who will provide the grand design?
What is yours and what is mine?
'Cause there is no more new frontier
We have got to make it here

We satifsy our endless needs
and justify our bloody deeds,
in the name of destiny
and in the name of God

And you can see them there,
On Sunday morning
Stand up and sing about
What it's like up there
They call it paradise
I don't know why
You call someplace paradise,
kiss it goodbye

~~~~~~

And the second was called 'Long Road Out Of Eden', depicting the fall:


Eagles - Long Road Out of Eden by ariefb

"Long Road Out Of Eden"

Moon shining down through the palms
Shadows moving on the sand
Somebody whispering the twenty-third psalm
Dusty rifle in his trembling hands

Somebody trying just to stay alive
He got promises to keep
Over the ocean in america
Far away and fast asleep

Silent stars blinking in the blackness of an endless sky
Cold silver satellites, ghostly caravans passing by
Galaxies unfolding, new worlds being born
Pilgrims and prodigals creeping toward the dawn
But it's a long road out of eden

Music blasting from an suv
On a bright and sunny day
Rolling down the interstate
In the good ol' usa

Having lunch at the petroleum club
Smokin' fine cigars and swappin' lives
He said: "gimme 'nother slice o' that barbecued brisket!"
"gimme 'nother piece o' that pecan pie!"

Freeways flickering, cell phones chiming a tune
We're riding to utopia, road map says we'll be arriving soon
Captains of the old order clinging to the reins
Assuring us these aches inside are only growing pains
But it's a long road out of eden

Back home i was so certain
The path was very clear
But now i have to wonder: "what are we doing here?"
I'm not counting on tomorrow
And i can't tell wrong from right
But i'd give anything to be there in your arms tonight

Weaving down the american highway
Through the litter and the wreckage and the cultural junk
Bloated with entitlement, loaded on propaganda
And now we're driving dazed and drunk

Been down the road to damascus,
The road to mandalay
Met the ghost of caesar on the appian way
He said, "it's hard to stop this bingeing, once you get a taste."
"but the road to empire is a bloody stupid waste."

Behold the bitten apple - the power of the tools
But all the knowledge in the world is of no use to fools
And it's a long road out of eden....

~~~~~~

If art, all art, is concerned with truth, then a society in denial will not find much use for it.
JEANETTE WINTERSON

If art reflects life, it does so with special mirrors.
BERTOLT BRECHT

[Hubble]

Love it Stan.

[Stanley]

Love it Stan.

Thanks Hubs.

Henley was a master of allegory in lyrics IMO.

Not a bad singer and drummer either

[QPR71]

It seems many of us love and admire the current European empire and many of us don't, and some of us are fans of the latest incarnation of the American empire and many of us aren't. Apparently most of us (but by no means all of us) did love the American empire when its figurehead was a handsome and well-educated man of Kenyan/American/European origin, but we are not so enamoured of it now its figurehead is a strange looking man of Scottish/European origin.

We're generally not fans of the Russian empire except when it threw off the communist yoke and embraced capitalism (although we're ambivalent about that), although some of us appreciated its efforts in bringing an end to many of the horrors of the Syrian civil war, and some of us didn't (we seem to have forgotten about Syria by the way), and most of us are happy to use the gas supplied by the Russian empire. Similarly, most of us are not fans of the Chinese empire, although we are more than happy to use its cheap goods.

We are no longer fans of the former European empires (well many of us aren't, although plenty are), including the British empire, although we are fans of many of its legacies, such as liberalism, human rights, the judicial system, democracy and so on.

When it comes to religious empires, we're not particularly fans of those, unless we are members of those religions, then we're big fans, except Christians, many of whom seem conflicted about this.

So my question is, do we want to be part of an empire or not? Would it be preferable if we called it a community? If the community is run by a banking/corporate cabal, does it really matter, as long as we continue to live in relative peace and prosperity? Does it matter if the goods and lifestyle we enjoy is predicated on the oppression and misery of millions outside our empire who service our economy through their labour? Do we want everyone to be part of one big, happy empire - community - with one government, or do we prefer the unpredictably of national sovereignty and diversity?

In Star Wars the Empire is universally bad, but is that fair? What do we think about empires?

problem with formal communities is that they lead to unions. the EC became the EU. the original (edit)united(edit) states were a confederate community which became a union. later, when additional states with some of the original states formed a confederation they were forced back into the union. (the civil war and the subjugative inhumane policies by the victors on the south in the "peace"). the problem with political communities is that without fail individuals become invisible and dispensable. that is why scottish fishermen are not allowed to fish in scottish waters under the EU. ruined lives caused by inhuman decisions made from a distance. it is individuals who are your loved ones and those are the group who will help you. to the state you are a number. this is what thatcher meant when she said "there is no society". that is why gorbachev called the EU "the european soviet". . "he who reads the media is misinformed".. Twain. read disinformation by Ion Mihai Pacepa