Trump the anti vaccine idiot

[Itsonlyagame]

Not when it puts other people at risk.

Therein lies the problem. A decision not to vaccinate can put other people at risk. My Mrs is anti vaccine, the main issues for her being the carriers that are used to preserve them and also the potential side effects of combined vaccines like MMR.
When we got together she already had two children of 7 and 9 but I hadn't started a family with my ex.
The long and short of it was, given we were both in our mid forties, we hoped but didn't expect to have a baby.
We did and he's now 5 but at 16 months he contracted hooping cough. It can be fatal in young infants and people of compromised immunity. They call it the 100 day cough and for about 2 months of that it was absolutely hellish watching him cough himself to the point where he'd turn blue, then the awful sound of him sucking in air so desperately he'd make the classic sound which gives the disease its name. Other times he'd cough so violently he'd throw up. The doctors basically said we just had to ride it out as there wasn't any useful treatment which made the whole experience all the more painful for us as parents, feeling like we weren't really able to do anything.
To make matters worse, my Mrs then caught it and just as our son started to improve she developed pneumonia and was hospitalised for 4 days.
Nobody died thankfully ! But I was a farking nervous wreck by the end of it all and as soon as she was better we had a long and frank discussion about vaccination. Eventually we reached a compromise. All of the children were vaccinated up to date but we used a private doctor up in town. They didn't use the same preservatives/carriers and although she still wasn't completely happy about it all she knew there was no way I was going to allow our son not to be vaccinated. I basically told her I'd take him to the local doctors for his jabs if I had to, something I didn't really have a problem with.
I don't think anybody can catogorically say one way or the other whether the vaccines or their additives can cause permanent mental or physical damage but one things for sure. If more and more people decide not to take up vaccination, herd immunity will be lost and we'll see more and more pregnant mothers, elderly people and those with compromised immunity die from diseases which were all but eradicated.

[James1979]

That sounds like an absolute nightmare. Glad your family is fine now. For me the benefits far outweigh the negatives. Vaccines have eradicated likes of smallpox and many other diseases. Your last sentence is spot on and that is why it should be compulsory. It's not about being a nanny state. It's about making sure that other people don't suffer due to your decision not to have a vaccine.

[Itsonlyagame]

That sounds like an absolute nightmare. Glad your family is fine now. For me the benefits far outweigh the negatives. Vaccines have eradicated likes of smallpox and many other diseases. Your last sentence is spot on and that is why it should be compulsory. It's not about being a nanny state. It's about making sure that other people don't suffer due to your decision not to have a vaccine.

All good in the end thanks James but obviously I'm slightly more emotive about the subject of vaccination than I was prior to the experience !
I had many a heated discussion with my wife about our responsibility to other members of society. Her argument was that her children were her priority and I can understand that but it's all about weighing up the risks.
For me, vaccination is a risk worth taking as whichever way you look at it, vaccines will save more lives than they damage.
As I said to her, if everybody adopted the same approach she initially did, that would eventually put all people at risk, including our own children.

[Stanley]

I am really sorry to hear of your experience Itsonly. It's such an emotive subject and I totally understand your position, but what about the possible risks the vaccinations carry too? As yet these risks are still unproven either way, are they not? Out of interest were your wife's first two kids vaccinated? Like I say it's a real tricky one. I just think as much £££ investment as possible should be going into the research into the eradicating any possible associated risks of vaccines, and I'm not convinced that is happening partly due to the corporate vested interests of big pharma and their strong ties are with our governments. I'd so love to have that nagging scepticism quashed though...

[Itsonlyagame]

I admit I'm not totally convinced either way regarding the complete safety of vaccinations Stan. It's such a difficult subject to unpick and to make an informed judgement on, given some of the conflicting reports.
My take on it is this. I accept that a small number of children have an adverse reaction to vaccines. A small number of those reactions will be severe and life changing. But, and it's a big but for me, the potential harm to everybody if vaccination programmes weren't taken up would be far worse. A particularly brutal way of describing it is collateral damage, maybe not the nicest terminology given we are talking about predominantly children but it pretty much hits the nail on the head.
In a nutshell, despite some niggling doubts about vaccines being 100% safe, the alternative option would be far worse imho.

Neither of my wife's children from her previous marriage had been vaccinated prior to my son contracting hooping cough.
Until he became ill I have to admit I'd been completely apathetic about vaccination and was happy to take my wife's lead on the subject. Obviously that changed given what happened. I wouldn't say my view became skewed purely because of that awful time, it just made me think about the subject a lot more. My stepson did contract it too but being older his symptoms were far less severe thankfully. If they hadn't been it may we'll have tipped us over the edge !
Thankfully we reached that compromise and all of the children are up to date now.

Interestingly, when we took our son to A+E after his first 'blue' incident, we were eventually told by the doctor, after about 6 hours, that it was hooping cough. He said he was very surprirised as it was a very uncommon disease. The same year (2012)
cases of hooping cough increased tenfold from the previous outbreak in 2008 and sadly the number of babies that died was into double figures. Not long after that a vaccination programme was offered to pregnant mothers.

[Hubble]

Tim, have a read of this very interesting study: http://info.cmsri.org/the-driven-res...ource=facebook

Some key findings from the study:


*Vaccinated children were more than three times as likely to be diagnosed on the Autism Spectrum (OR 4.3)

*Vaccinated children were 30-fold more likely to be diagnosed with allergic rhinitis (hay fever) than non-vaccinated children

* Vaccinated children were 22-fold more likely to require an allergy medication than unvaccinated children

*Vaccinated children had more than quadruple the risk of being diagnosed with a learning disability than unvaccinated children (OR 5.2)

*Vaccinated children were 300 percent more likely to be diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder than unvaccinated children (OR 4.3)

* Vaccinated children were 340 percent (OR 4.4) more likely to have been diagnosed with pneumonia than unvaccinated children

*Vaccinated children were 300 percent more likely to be diagnosed with an ear infection than unvaccinated children (OR 4.0)

*Vaccinated children were 700 percent more likely to have surgery to insert ear drainage tubes than unvaccinated children (OR 8.01)

* Vaccinated children were 2.5-fold more likely to be diagnosed with any chronic illness than unvaccinated children

[Stanley]

That's extraordinary Hubble because I had most of those conditions growing up and I'm fairly sure I was vaccinated.

Tim, have a read of this very interesting study: http://info.cmsri.org/the-driven-res...ource=facebook

Some key findings from the study:


*Vaccinated children were more than three times as likely to be diagnosed on the Autism Spectrum (OR 4.3)

*Vaccinated children were 30-fold more likely to be diagnosed with allergic rhinitis (hay fever) than non-vaccinated children

* Vaccinated children were 22-fold more likely to require an allergy medication than unvaccinated children

*Vaccinated children had more than quadruple the risk of being diagnosed with a learning disability than unvaccinated children (OR 5.2)

*Vaccinated children were 300 percent more likely to be diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder than unvaccinated children (OR 4.3)

* Vaccinated children were 340 percent (OR 4.4) more likely to have been diagnosed with pneumonia than unvaccinated children

*Vaccinated children were 300 percent more likely to be diagnosed with an ear infection than unvaccinated children (OR 4.0)

*Vaccinated children were 700 percent more likely to have surgery to insert ear drainage tubes than unvaccinated children (OR 8.01)

* Vaccinated children were 2.5-fold more likely to be diagnosed with any chronic illness than unvaccinated children

[Tarbie]

Tim, have a read of this very interesting study: http://info.cmsri.org/the-driven-res...ource=facebook

Some key findings from the study:


*Vaccinated children were more than three times as likely to be diagnosed on the Autism Spectrum (OR 4.3)

*Vaccinated children were 30-fold more likely to be diagnosed with allergic rhinitis (hay fever) than non-vaccinated children

* Vaccinated children were 22-fold more likely to require an allergy medication than unvaccinated children

*Vaccinated children had more than quadruple the risk of being diagnosed with a learning disability than unvaccinated children (OR 5.2)

*Vaccinated children were 300 percent more likely to be diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder than unvaccinated children (OR 4.3)

* Vaccinated children were 340 percent (OR 4.4) more likely to have been diagnosed with pneumonia than unvaccinated children

*Vaccinated children were 300 percent more likely to be diagnosed with an ear infection than unvaccinated children (OR 4.0)

*Vaccinated children were 700 percent more likely to have surgery to insert ear drainage tubes than unvaccinated children (OR 8.01)

* Vaccinated children were 2.5-fold more likely to be diagnosed with any chronic illness than unvaccinated children

Some worrying numbers in that Hubs.

But what's the solution? Go back to pre-vaccination days and start losing children to preventable diseases?

[Stanley]

Some worrying numbers in that Hubs.

But what's the solution? Go back to pre-vaccination days and start losing children to preventable diseases?

All I can do is speak from personal experience - which is to say that I'd rather NOT have been vaccinated to avoid having gone through the childhood illnesses I had to endure (and even into adulthood eg asthma/hayfever). At one point I nearly died from viral pneumonia. I was a thin as a matchstick and almost wasted away.

The study Hubble referenced appears to bear this out. If it does not, then the fact that I had the most of the conditions listed seems an incredibly high coincidence.

[Tarbie]

All I can do is speak from personal experience - which is to say that I'd rather NOT have been vaccinated to avoid having gone through the childhood illnesses I had to endure (and even into adulthood eg asthma/hayfever). At one point I nearly died from viral pneumonia. I was a thin as a matchstick and almost wasted away.

The study Hubble referenced appears to bear this out. If it does not, then the fact that I had the most of the conditions listed seems an incredibly high coincidence.

Doesn't sound too clever mate and horrible to think that all of that could have been caused by government issued vaccinations.

What I will say though is the alternative is pretty horrific too. We are seeing a re-emergence of diseases like Whooping Cough, Polio, Measles, Diphtheria, Hep B etc. all because of anti-vaxxers. A few years back, the thought of Polio happening in the West was unthinkable, but now it's happening.

If everyone out there decided that Vaccinations were not the way to go, we would see the life expectancy in the West drop massively, a huge strain on an already broken healthcare system in our country and childhood mortality rates from the dark ages.

[Stanley]

A good friend of mine has never been vaccinated and the only one of these she ever had was hayfever in the list above. Her 4 year old son is in perfect health too and has never had a single vaccine. Some people say that the vaccine was one of the biggest lifesavers in medical history however there is also the argument that it is purely big business and surgeries are paid more the more vaccinations they give out. Many vaccines are also untested on pregnant women and yet they now insist on giving the whooping cough vaccine to women at 35 weeks pregnant so you basically inject a mercury filled drug into your unborn foetus - this doesn't' make much sense to me if it's never been tested but what do I know?

People talk about 'proper scientific studies' and 'looking at evidence'. But the study Hubble quoted is exactly that too, also done by doctors, professors, specialists etc. and the study highlights extraordinary multiple coincidences in my personal history.

Perhaps the public need to understand that they too can be caught up amongst a war of words between two opposing scientifc sides. Of course I'm all for looking at the evidence, but you have to follow the money trail too. When has that never been a sensible approach which normally leads to the truth?

We all know that 'evidence' can be and often is manipulated to support a particular argument. Look who funds and supports much of this 'evidence'? Big pharma. Look at all their vested interests. Look at all the controversy surrounding them. There's a war of words going on here and the public are caught right in the middle of it.

Which side of the argument does not have a vested interest?

Which side of the debate has the moral high ground and never manipulates science and evidence to support a theory?

Certainly not saying I have the answers, but all I am saying is there is AT LEAST a debate to be had on the subject.

#FollowTheMoney

[Itsonlyagame]

Some good points there Stan and I doubt many people would disagree that vaccines aren't perfect.
The questions I always ask myself are this,

1) are they 100% safe ? The answer has to be no.

2) could pharmaceutical companies make them safer ? The answer is probably.


3) at present, what's the alternative to vaccination ? For those that say just don't do it, why would the gradual increase and then inevitable epidemics in diseases which have all but been eradicated seem justifiable, particularly as those diseases kill infants and those with compromised immunity. Not only that, the cost to the health service would probably bankrupt it.

Personally I wasn't completely happy having my son vaccinated but as I kept telling myself, unless there's a better alternative available, it wouldn't have been fair not to.

[Hitman34]

what i cannot understand is why has the 3 seperate injections been taken away completly. i was more than willing to pay privately for my daughter but was told that it has been done away with and i will only be able to opt for the mmr.

[QPR71]

But if you make it optional then it puts everyone at risk not just those who decide not to have it.

surely those who have taken the vaccination are protected in this situation. you cant catch it if you've been vaccinated..right?
most illnesses mentioned related to hygiene and can be dealt with in the case of infection without vaccination. also some degree of infection
can be helpful. my grandmother had TB in the 60's. she was fine after and i am immune to TB due to early minute exposure which caused no TB, only immunity.

[James1979]

surely those who have taken the vaccination are protected in this situation. you cant catch it if you've been vaccinated..right?
most illnesses mentioned related to hygiene and can be dealt with in the case of infection without vaccination. also some degree of infection
can be helpful. my grandmother had TB in the 60's. she was fine after and i am immune to TB due to early minute exposure which caused no TB, only immunity.

No. If some don't have it, then people who don't have it can then catch it. Therefore the diseases endures and can then be caught by kids prior to the vaccination. Look at smallpox.