Europe. In or out?

[lymehoop]

I lead a (services) business unit WW for one of the worlds largest corporates. Before that, I led Europe. It's very very difficult for anyone to know with any accuracy the ramifications of leaving Europe (which alone, is enough to make me vote stay - why take such a considerable risk??) but from my personal experience (all I can go on), being part of Europe has led to significantly LESS red tape (day to day business) than if we were outside. Within Europe I can utilise resources across EU borders (send deep skill where it's needed on specific projects etc) without any fuss whatsoever - as soon as those resources need to leave (or we need to use resources from outside) the complexity increases by orders of magnitude. Complexity = Cost. In the end, who foots the bill (ultimately). I'm sure you don't need me to tell you it won't be the corporates. A clear vote IN for me

I'd have no problem if the EU was what most people originally voted for, the Common Market. It's what it is today that I dislike

[Itsonlyagame]

And how would that change if we leave? Even most Brexiteers want to remain in the single market - and that requires the free movement of goods, services and LABOUR. Its written on the tin.

The question was to give an example of one negative effect of being in the EU. Do you not agree that that's an example ?
Those towns have changed, probably irreversibly, but I'm sure at least a few of the people living slightly further up the road would like to see reform, before their towns change too.
Lastly, there is a huge difference between having a completely open border where anybody can walk in, and a system whereby the government can allow people in who have the skills/qualifications to help improve our services, not drain them.

[jmelanie]

I'd have no problem if the EU was what most people originally voted for, the Common Market. It's what it is today that I dislike

I think that's what we all want. Also when we voted only 10 (I think) countries were members and they caused no problems for immigration.

I don't know if it is possible but what I would like is for us to leave the EU and set up our own organization similar to NAFTA which focuses on trade. We could still have open borders for the members as not all of the countries who are in the EU would be able to join. How have the recent countries who have joined benefitted the U.K.?

The following website of HM Revenue and Customs https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statisti.../Pages/OTS.asp then click on Top 5 Trading Partners for March 2016 shows that we exported most to the U.S. The U.S. and Ireland are the only countries which we export more to than import. If we leave the EU I don't think anything would change regarding Ireland as we have long standing agreements with Ireland. For example the Irish have always been able to live in the U.K. Surely the countries we import most from (Germany) would not want this to change because they wouldn't necessarily find countries to replace us.

[stainrodisalegend]

The question was to give an example of one negative effect of being in the EU. Do you not agree that that's an example ?
Those towns have changed, probably irreversibly, but I'm sure at least a few of the people living slightly further up the road would like to see reform, before their towns change too.
Lastly, there is a huge difference between having a completely open border where anybody can walk in, and a system whereby the government can allow people in who have the skills/qualifications to help improve our services, not drain them.

My point is you would have seen large scale immigration regardless of whether or not we were in the EU. Governments of different stripes have believed - rightly or wrongly - that we need more labour. There is a problem with a significant part of our population being less well-educated than in similar countries (and education is increasingly important with the decline of manufacturing and the increase in high tech companies) and a good million or so of Brits being third generation unemployed and very difficult to get into work. I accept that this has been very challenging for people in lower paid jobs who have been out muscled by immigrants often prepared to work much harder for less. And this has caused social tensions, such as you describe. But it has also brought about economic benefits: Time Magazine has calculated that the British economy will overtake Germany's by 2050, and that is because Britain is a more attractive place for bright, well-educated hard working people from around the world to come and live. I totally accept it comes with problems, but on balance I much prefer the London of 2016 which is lively, cosmopolitain and exciting - arguably the most exciting on the planet - to the sullen, inward looking, suspicious place of the 1950s which used to have signs on pubs saying "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs". I'm basically an optimist and think that on balance tomorrow is likely to be better than today; other people are more fearful, and I respect that. But to bring it back to Europe - its no coincidence that younger voters are much more pro-Europe and older people much more anti, because one part of society is looking backwards, the other forwards.

[stainrodisalegend]

I think that's what we all want. Also when we voted only 10 (I think) countries were members and they caused no problems for immigration.

I don't know if it is possible but what I would like is for us to leave the EU and set up our own organization similar to NAFTA which focuses on trade. We could still have open borders for the members as not all of the countries who are in the EU would be able to join. How have the recent countries who have joined benefitted the U.K.?

The following website of HM Revenue and Customs https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statisti.../Pages/OTS.asp then click on Top 5 Trading Partners for March 2016 shows that we exported most to the U.S. The U.S. and Ireland are the only countries which we export more to than import. If we leave the EU I don't think anything would change regarding Ireland as we have long standing agreements with Ireland. For example the Irish have always been able to live in the U.K. Surely the countries we import most from (Germany) would not want this to change because they wouldn't necessarily find countries to replace us.

We export more to Ireland than to China (and Ireland is in the EU).

I wouldn't want the EU to go back to just being a common market at all.

Who was it who has driven up standards demanding that the British govt stopped pumping raw sewage onto our beaches?

Who was it who stopped factories pumping out foul chemicals which do not respect or stop at national boundaries?

Who was it who stopped mobile phone companies ripping off consumers with roaming charges?

Who was it who stopped phone companies and other utilities protecting monopolies (all this happened long after the EU ceased to be purely "the Common Market").

Who was it who, through the European Arrest Warrant, ensures that paedophiles, murderers etc are tracked down and investigated across borders?

Who is it who protects basic worker rights?

I could go on but its a very long list...

[stainrodisalegend]

would Cameron use the veto vote though, he has been advocating Turkish entry for the last 10 years. What worries me no one at Westminster seems to mind the mind-boggling numbers coming in

But that is my point. This is less about "Europe", more about a decision taken by successive Labour and Conservative governments that we need more high skilled and motivated foreign labour to make up for the deficiencies in our own labour force. I accept the fault to some extent lies with both those parties for not being more honest and open and explaining the economic imperative of immigration. But they are too frightened of losing votes, so they have left the ground clear for Farage and co to only present the negative case.

[jmelanie]

We export more to Ireland than to China (and Ireland is in the EU).

I wouldn't want the EU to go back to just being a common market at all.

Who was it who has driven up standards demanding that the British govt stopped pumping raw sewage onto our beaches?

Who was it who stopped factories pumping out foul chemicals which do not respect or stop at national boundaries?

Who was it who stopped mobile phone companies ripping off consumers with roaming charges?

Who was it who stopped phone companies and other utilities protecting monopolies (all this happened long after the EU ceased to be purely "the Common Market").

Who was it who, through the European Arrest Warrant, ensures that paedophiles, murderers etc are tracked down and investigated across borders?

Who is it who protects basic worker rights?

I could go on but its a very long list...

Our biggest exporter is the U.S.A (last time I looked they weren't in the EU). As I already stated we have a special relationship with Ireland which dates back to independence and is not likely to change.
Environment Protection agency (law of 1990)
Monopolies are protected in most countries in the EU. How many utility companies are there in France (EDF owned by the French government), the water supply is the responsibility of the municipality. Germany has EON and the water supply is also the responsibility of the municipality.
Everybody knows the European Arrest Warrant doesn't work as a number of people who have committed crimes in EU countries, come to the U.K. and continue committing the same crimes.
Basic worker rights are protected so much that there are now strikes in France because the government has to change these rights to bring down the 10.5% unemployment (50% amongst young people). It is despite us being in the EU that the United Kingdom's economy is doing better than most EU countries.

[Itsonlyagame]

My point is you would have seen large scale immigration regardless of whether or not we were in the EU. Governments of different stripes have believed - rightly or wrongly - that we need more labour. There is a problem with a significant part of our population being less well-educated than in similar countries (and education is increasingly important with the decline of manufacturing and the increase in high tech companies) and a good million or so of Brits being third generation unemployed and very difficult to get into work. I accept that this has been very challenging for people in lower paid jobs who have been out muscled by immigrants often prepared to work much harder for less. And this has caused social tensions, such as you describe. But it has also brought about economic benefits: Time Magazine has calculated that the British economy will overtake Germany's by 2050, and that is because Britain is a more attractive place for bright, well-educated hard working people from around the world to come and live. I totally accept it comes with problems, but on balance I much prefer the London of 2016 which is lively, cosmopolitain and exciting - arguably the most exciting on the planet - to the sullen, inward looking, suspicious place of the 1950s which used to have signs on pubs saying "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs". I'm basically an optimist and think that on balance tomorrow is likely to be better than today; other people are more fearful, and I respect that. But to bring it back to Europe - its no coincidence that younger voters are much more pro-Europe and older people much more anti, because one part of society is looking backwards, the other forwards.

It doesn't sound like we have much of a difference of opinion.I'm all for bright and well educated people migrating here, whether they be from Poland, Peru or Pakistan. That's why we need to have more control over immigration, so we can ensure this happens. London will always be bright and cosmopolitan and I too wouldn't want it any other way.
There wouldn't be a complete ban on foreign labour coming to the uk if we leave the EU, just as other countries in the EU wouldn't blanket ban us from working there. The difference is you streamline who comes, a win win surely.

[stainrodisalegend]

Our biggest exporter is the U.S.A (last time I looked they weren't in the EU). As I already stated we have a special relationship with Ireland which dates back to independence and is not likely to change.
Environment Protection agency (law of 1990)
Monopolies are protected in most countries in the EU. How many utility companies are there in France (EDF owned by the French government), the water supply is the responsibility of the municipality. Germany has EON and the water supply is also the responsibility of the municipality.
Everybody knows the European Arrest Warrant doesn't work as a number of people who have committed crimes in EU countries, come to the U.K. and continue committing the same crimes.
Basic worker rights are protected so much that there are now strikes in France because the government has to change these rights to bring down the 10.5% unemployment (50% amongst young people). It is despite us being in the EU that the United Kingdom's economy is doing better than most EU countries.

You are right our biggest trading partner is the USA - and thanks to a massive trade treaty being negotiated between the EU and America, that trade is set to grow considerably.

You are also right that not everything works perfectly, including the single market and co-operation between police forces - but that is an argument for strengthening these arrangements, not taking our toys back home and sulking.

The Republic of Ireland is now a member of the European Single Market, so any trade deal we negotiate with them would have to be compatible with Ireland's membership of the EU. Yes we could in theory re-negotiate hundreds of trade treaties with hundreds of countries, but that will take years, and what will happen to our economy meanwhile?

[stainrodisalegend]

It doesn't sound like we have much of a difference of opinion.I'm all for bright and well educated people migrating here, whether they be from Poland, Peru or Pakistan. That's why we need to have more control over immigration, so we can ensure this happens. London will always be bright and cosmopolitan and I too wouldn't want it any other way.
There wouldn't be a complete ban on foreign labour coming to the uk if we leave the EU, just as other countries in the EU wouldn't blanket ban us from working there. The difference is you streamline who comes, a win win surely.

I'm glad you say that about modern London. I agree in an ideal world we would have control of immigration, but sadly there is no deal open to us which allows us access to the single market - the world's most valuable, bigger even than America's - while restricting immigration from the EU. Cameron tried for such a deal and was basically told where to go - why would Boris Johnson or whoever replaces him be any more successful? So we have to make a choice: which is more important - for me it is trade with Europe. But there was a comprehensive study done a year or so ago which showed that the British economy benefits from people coming over from other EU countries, even after you take into account the cost to the NHS, schools etc, primarily due to the increased economic activity and the tax they pay. The immigrants who are actually a slight net drain on the UK economy are those from outside the EU.

[Itsonlyagame]

I think there seems to be a misconception that if we leave the EU they will completely turn their back on us.
That's just not true.
You've rightly said that a lot of immigrants take low paid jobs when they get here. As that's the case, and couple that with the fact that those low paid jobs tend to be in the service/construction industry, both of which involve an awful lot of cash in hand ( black market), I doubt they pay very much tax at all to compensate for the increased drain on the NHS and other services.
Statistics can be misleading but here's one for you. Just under 40% of EU migrants arrived here last year to work without a job offer. You said in a previous post that they work harder for less money. Does that make it acceptable for someone who arrives from a much poorer country than ours to walk into a place of work, whether it's a building site or a restaurant and offer to undercut the people who are already working there, purely because they're used to a much lower standard of living.
The EU themselves impose various tarrifs and restrictions on goods and services to "level the playing field" so where's the logic.
If EU migrants have so much to offer why agree that it would be more ideal if we had more control of our borders.
Interestingly, David Cameron himself, one if the people spearheading the remain campaign, used the word "disappointing" when asked about the record numbers of migrants to the uk in 2015.

[jmelanie]

You are right our biggest trading partner is the USA - and thanks to a massive trade treaty being negotiated between the EU and America, that trade is set to grow considerably.

You are also right that not everything works perfectly, including the single market and co-operation between police forces - but that is an argument for strengthening these arrangements, not taking our toys back home and sulking.

The Republic of Ireland is now a member of the European Single Market, so any trade deal we negotiate with them would have to be compatible with Ireland's membership of the EU. Yes we could in theory re-negotiate hundreds of trade treaties with hundreds of countries, but that will take years, and what will happen to our economy meanwhile?

You are totally incorrect about Ireland as the treaty we have with them predates our being in the EU (or the common market). There has been freedom of movement between Ireland and the U.K. since their independence. The Irish have been able to work and live in the U.K. They can vote in the upcoming election (unlike other European countries) and the same goes for British who want to live and work in Ireland. This won't change if we leave the EU. This is one of the reasons why when there was the European bank crisis, the only country the U.K. gave aid to was Ireland.

The trade treaty between the U.S. and EU is dead in the water. The United Kingdom was the only country who really wanted it and neither Clinton or Trump want new trade agreements.

[dogsrrs]

Just watched sky news Andrew Pierce made the point that the EU advocates free movement of labour but last year 77k EU migrants arrived in the UK without a job which actually translates to free movement of migration , surely even the most ardent supporter of staying in can see why the Cbi and the I o D have a vested interest in support of the in campaign along with the vast majority of employers ,can that mean anything other the detrament of the unemployed ?

[jmelanie]

I think it is unfortunate that the campaign has become about personalities rather than the issues. It was probably too much to hope that that wouldn't happen. I wish both parties could put their point without getting personal and trying to use the facts. I realize that there are people who want to stay in and others who want to leave, and I respect their opinion. Also I find some of the remarks by young people to be, to say the least, over the top. One young girl who was talking on the news said that the older generation shouldn't be allowed to vote because they won't be around in the future!

[scuberry]

I read with Interest all the debates on here for staying in and leaving,but one thing that sticks out is that every argument that stainrodisalegend puts forward for staying in is shot to pieces with facts from other debaters,and i see the same happening in every programme i watch on TV, the In's to me are scaremongereing and probably just scared of change whereas the Out's reason and come up with legitamate answers for leaving.
Perhaps the younger generation should'nt be allowed to vote as they have never been outside the EU so have never experienced controlling ourselves,i hope they are pleasantly surprised.