Europe. In or out?

[cross it Dave]

only 8,000 immigrants chose to move to Scotland last year. 270,000+ chose the rest of Britain. No wonder the Scots have no problem with mass immigration

It's the weather and that dreadful woman Sturgeon that puts them off, and of course no jobs.

[Snaxo]

Of course, ultimately you realise this whole referendum is not really because the Gov thinks the people should decide, right? The EU referendum is a consequence of a Civil War raging away in the Tory Party since the fifties, when the other European countries began looking for ways to prevent another continental war and see off the growing Soviet threat. This conflict has morphed into an existential battle between those Conservatives who see the world through a post war British Empire prism and the reconstructed Thatcher acolytes who by and large do not. It's a fight for the soul (if it has one) of the Tory party and has like some growing Black Hole sucked in the rest of us. Johnson, Osbourne, Gove, Cameron and the rest don't give a monkeys about the EU, you or me...they just care about who controls the party. Cameron promised a referendum in a bid to prevent far right members of his party defecting to UKIP.

Or as an acquaintance also put to me....

This is a move by the right wing of the Tory Party replacing Cameron with Boris without the need for an an election and disposing of their Bette Noires, the EU, the NHS, asects of the Welfare state and probably by slashing state spending to pre 1930s levels, all in one easy campaign that is funded and backed by the billionaire media owners Murdoch, Barclay Brothers, Rothermere and Desmond, all of whom are non-Dom exiles from the UK and it's taxes anyway. The UK public are easily fooled (as Trump himself has proved with US public) by invoking the "foreigner menace" and Brexit is now becoming a Slam-Dunk by whipping up The Masses.

[cross it Dave]

I am not sure I have posted on this thread but for what its worth I am out and here is why.
Our PM (who I liked) said he would get the right deal in Europe and if he didn't he would recommend we vote out. Well he didn't get the deal but went back on his word.
Now I know there is scaremongering on both sides but I found the fact that it was being done on such a scale by the PM and Chancellor shocking given their position in office.
Finally and most improtantly for me is that i think that it is ultimately a doomed project and we need to distance ourselves from it. At some point we will be asked to joing the Euro itself and that won't happen so why hang around now. I also really object to the gravy train that is Brussels. They seem accountable to no-one.
I know it is a leap of faith and in fact it would probably be much safer for me to vote remain as we import loads of product from Italy, Spain and Portugal where I work. In fact my MD comes into my office most days to try and change my mind but I feel it is a matter of principal.
There, and I didn't even mention immigration. Doh!!

Well said mate

[cross it Dave]

Of course, ultimately you realise this whole referendum is not really because the Gov thinks the people should decide, right? The EU referendum is a consequence of a Civil War raging away in the Tory Party since the fifties, when the other European countries began looking for ways to prevent another continental war and see off the growing Soviet threat. This conflict has morphed into an existential battle between those Conservatives who see the world through a post war British Empire prism and the reconstructed Thatcher acolytes who by and large do not. It's a fight for the soul (if it has one) of the Tory party and has like some growing Black Hole sucked in the rest of us. Johnson, Osbourne, Gove, Cameron and the rest don't give a monkeys about the EU, you or me...they just care about who controls the party. Cameron promised a referendum in a bid to prevent far right members of his party defecting to UKIP.

Or as an acquaintance also put to me....

This is a move by the right wing of the Tory Party replacing Cameron with Boris without the need for an an election and disposing of their Bette Noires, the EU, the NHS, asects of the Welfare state and probably by slashing state spending to pre 1930s levels, all in one easy campaign that is funded and backed by the billionaire media owners Murdoch, Barclay Brothers, Rothermere and Desmond, all of whom are non-Dom exiles from the UK and it's taxes anyway. The UK public are easily fooled (as Trump himself has proved with US public) by invoking the "foreigner menace" and Brexit is now becoming a Slam-Dunk by whipping up The Masses.

far too simplistic Snaxo

[Snaxo]

far too simplistic Snaxo

[Kevin Mcleod]

Good little video for us non remainers

[brightonr]

Of course, ultimately you realise this whole referendum is not really because the Gov thinks the people should decide, right? The EU referendum is a consequence of a Civil War raging away in the Tory Party since the fifties, when the other European countries began looking for ways to prevent another continental war and see off the growing Soviet threat. This conflict has morphed into an existential battle between those Conservatives who see the world through a post war British Empire prism and the reconstructed Thatcher acolytes who by and large do not. It's a fight for the soul (if it has one) of the Tory party and has like some growing Black Hole sucked in the rest of us. Johnson, Osbourne, Gove, Cameron and the rest don't give a monkeys about the EU, you or me...they just care about who controls the party. Cameron promised a referendum in a bid to prevent far right members of his party defecting to UKIP.

Or as an acquaintance also put to me....

This is a move by the right wing of the Tory Party replacing Cameron with Boris without the need for an an election and disposing of their Bette Noires, the EU, the NHS, asects of the Welfare state and probably by slashing state spending to pre 1930s levels, all in one easy campaign that is funded and backed by the billionaire media owners Murdoch, Barclay Brothers, Rothermere and Desmond, all of whom are non-Dom exiles from the UK and it's taxes anyway. The UK public are easily fooled (as Trump himself has proved with US public) by invoking the "foreigner menace" and Brexit is now becoming a Slam-Dunk by whipping up The Masses.

Seems to me that your dislike for the Conservative party is taking over any form of reason.

Both the Tories and Labour are massively split. Both are riddled with self-serving people without much in the way of conscience.

CCJ's point sums up the realities. It's really nothing to do with not wanting to happily co-exist with the French, the Germans, or anybody else. Of course that is exactly what we all want. It's simply that we wish to do it in a way that is beneficial to everyone, not just the few.

Won't happen, but it would be great fun if every MP supporting the leave campaign were to stand down on Friday, should the "GAG's" prevail, resulting in mass by-elections and a further general election this year as a result.

[Itsonlyagame]

The French won't really be bothered either way whether or not we leave the EU. They have far more problems of their own to sort out. They are in danger of becoming a third world country which is sad for a country with their history. Over 2 million skilled French workers have left France (most for London) because of their high tax system (which was dropped because it simply did not work). On a personal level, I took a four year degree at the University of Nice on European relations after the Second World War. My husband, whom I met in Paris (another story) has a Ph.D. in International Relations and Modern French history (specializing in the interwar period). It takes many years to understand the French (I don't think they even understand themselves). The French people are now disillusioned with the EU. This is because the country is doing so badly and of course they blame it on the EU, even though it is there own government which is responsible (though in part this is because they followed EU directives to the letter like the 35 hour week).

The French themselves could never understand why the English followed all of the directives of the EU. They generally only followed the ones that suited them and this worked well for a long time. In order to join the Euro they fudged the figures by including the sale of French Telecom in their annual figures, as if they would be selling French Telecom every year.

Partnership and compromise to the French means they are partners with other countries and they compromise when it is in their own interest.

Enough about your 4 year degree in European relations Mel, do you have an A level in geography

[Snaxo]

Seems to me that your dislike for the Conservative party is taking over any form of reason.

Both the Tories and Labour are massively split. Both are riddled with self-serving people without much in the way of conscience.

CCJ's point sums up the realities. It's really nothing to do with not wanting to happily co-exist with the French, the Germans, or anybody else. Of course that is exactly what we all want. It's simply that we wish to do it in a way that is beneficial to everyone, not just the few.

Won't happen, but it would be great fun if every MP supporting the leave campaign were to stand down on Friday, should the "GAG's" prevail, resulting in mass by-elections and a further general election this year as a result.

Quite the contrary I certainly dislike the Tory party. Your second sentence is accurate, I would suggest.

The point is, the *likelihood* (not absolute fact - no one really knows of course) is that leaving the EU will be beneficial to very few of us. Quite the opposite, most likely. Still listen to Boris and Farage and ignore the overwhelming weight of opinion from World Leaders, Leaders of Commerce and Industry, Trade Union Leaders. Academia etc. Yes there are opposing views in such places, but in a huge minority. Still as the lovely man Michael Gove suggested 'just ignore the experts'. If you just want to ignore weight of expertise then of course there's nothing any one can to reason with you (or whoever), with all due respect

[Olly]

Late news, German workers will be opposing any tariffs on the UK

[cross it Dave]

Late news, German workers will be opposing any tariffs on the UK

It was the head of their CBI, Markus Kerber.

http://order-order.com/2016/06/22/german-business-chief-calls-possibility-post-brexit-barriers-foolish/

Can this possibly be true or just a spoof.

[easthertsr]

I've read this thread with great interest, and can understand some of both sides of the equation. The word fact has been banded about by a lot of people. I have one fact that is undeniable, if we vote leave we will have in place the most right wing government in history. Cameron's austerity will seem like a picnic. Those who will suffer most are you and me, the ordinary man and woman in the street who work hard and just try to get on with life. Just look at the major players of leave, do you really think they want us to take control, as they say ad nauseum? They sense an opportunity to seize power, and are using their powerful friends in the press to help them. If we wake up on Friday to a nation that has voted to leave then don't expect a say in government, expect an extreme right wing clique handing down crumbs if we're lucky.

[brightonr]

Quite the contrary I certainly dislike the Tory party. Your second sentence is accurate, I would suggest.

The point is, the *likelihood* (not absolute fact - no one really knows of course) is that leaving the EU will be beneficial to very few of us. Quite the opposite, most likely. Still listen to Boris and Farage and ignore the overwhelming weight of opinion from World Leaders, Leaders of Commerce and Industry, Trade Union Leaders. Academia etc. Yes there are opposing views in such places, but in a huge minority. Still as the lovely man Michael Gove suggested 'just ignore the experts'. If you just want to ignore weight of expertise then of course there's nothing any one can to reason with you (or whoever), with all due respect

Please don't confuse my stance with not listening to experts. I fully acknowledge that most of them are absolutely correct in saying that there may well be a strain on European relations, our economy and so forth. Never any doubt about it. The point is though, it will be temporary. Things will sort themselves out with a new common sense approach to the realities of the situation, particularly as several other countries would be likely to follow us if we left.

If you are happy to vote for a temporary solution and easy option rather than the obvious long term benefits, then so be it. That's the beauty of a democracy. Personally I would prefer to run with something that will ensure we are prosperous for years to come, along with the rest of our European cousins, as opposed to what may or may not happen to our interest rates for the next twelve months, or the contents of the chancellors emergency budget as a penalty for our insubordination.

Who knows, we may even form some sort of union from scratch as was intended many years ago before the nutters took over the asylum.

I think that the vote will go your way though, if I'm honest. I feel that far too many years of weak government has softened us up as a nation and that the gullible and the gutless will prevail as is usually the case these days.

[brightonr]

I've read this thread with great interest, and can understand some of both sides of the equation. The word fact has been banded about by a lot of people. I have one fact that is undeniable, if we vote leave we will have in place the most right wing government in history. Cameron's austerity will seem like a picnic. Those who will suffer most are you and me, the ordinary man and woman in the street who work hard and just try to get on with life. Just look at the major players of leave, do you really think they want us to take control, as they say ad nauseum? They sense an opportunity to seize power, and are using their powerful friends in the press to help them. If we wake up on Friday to a nation that has voted to leave then don't expect a say in government, expect an extreme right wing clique handing down crumbs if we're lucky.

Then the correct thing to do would be to vote them out at the next election.

The Tories are heading rapidly towards being a busted flush anyway with this idiot in charge. The bloke couldn't even win a majority in 2010 after thirteen years of the most inept and deceitful government our country has ever seen. I'm guessing you liked Blair though.

[Snaxo]

Please don't confuse my stance with not listening to experts. I fully acknowledge that most of them are absolutely correct in saying that there may well be a strain on European relations, our economy and so forth. Never any doubt about it. The point is though, it will be temporary. Things will sort themselves out with a new common sense approach to the realities of the situation, particularly as several other countries would be likely to follow us if we left.

If you are happy to vote for a temporary solution and easy option rather than the obvious long term benefits, then so be it. That's the beauty of a democracy. Personally I would prefer to run with something that will ensure we are prosperous for years to come, along with the rest of our European cousins, as opposed to what may or may not happen to our interest rates for the next twelve months, or the contents of the chancellors emergency budget as a penalty for our insubordination.

Who knows, we may even form some sort of union from scratch as was intended many years ago before the nutters took over the asylum.

I think that the vote will go your way though, if I'm honest. I feel that far too many years of weak government has softened us up as a nation and that the gullible and the gutless will prevail as is usually the case these days.

Brightonr - I respect your views but bottom line is that there is not one piece of factual evidence (that I have seen - and it doesn't exist because it would be purely theoretical at best) to support your theory that we are likely to be better off in the long run. Further more - the level of pain (mostly for the ordinary man who's already been put through a lot of pain by this and the former government) is potentially quite serious. And if you are right and in the long term we will benefit - how long could we wait? Far too many years.

Here's another article on the subject indicating the level of economic impact we could feel right away, by a man with a track record of getting predictions right (George Soros)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-crash-pound-living-standards-george-soros