Europe. In or out?

[vespa]

Seems to me the big business men that want us to remain ,just want to keep a steady flow of cheap immigrant labour . Ive looked long and hard into this issue and it isnt a Left wing /Right wing one . ive chucked my hat in , and i`m voting OUT

[brightonr]

The scare tactics are continuing unabated with talk of an emergency budget, I see. Nothing short of disgraceful how those from across the political divide are going about trying to frighten everybody into voting to stay in. I'm hoping that they're not, but I have a horrible feeling that the majority will prove to be gutless and fall for all this nonsense.

Looking ahead, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we have the next general election earlier than planned. Would be interesting to see how many would vote differently after this shambles. I know I will be.

[Kevin Mcleod]

Someone up the top has really upset Rupert Murdoch recently. Big double spread centre page Brexit poster for the poor people to put in their windows in today's paper.

[jmelanie]

The scare tactics are continuing unabated with talk of an emergency budget, I see. Nothing short of disgraceful how those from across the political divide are going about trying to frighten everybody into voting to stay in. I'm hoping that they're not, but I have a horrible feeling that the majority will prove to be gutless and fall for all this nonsense.

Looking ahead, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we have the next general election earlier than planned. Would be interesting to see how many would vote differently after this shambles. I know I will be.

I am really disappointed about the way the campaign has been carried out. I don't think any members of parliament should have been allowed to campaign. After all aren't they supposed to be running the country? Also I think the election should have followed the normal rules of a general election where campaigning is only allowed to last three weeks. It seems to have been going on forever.

[Hubble]

Seems to me the big business men that want us to remain ,just want to keep a steady flow of cheap immigrant labour . Ive looked long and hard into this issue and it isnt a Left wing /Right wing one . ive chucked my hat in , and i`m voting OUT

I don't think it's that simple Vesps. It's true, big businesses want to remain in Europe, but it's nothing to do with 'cheap immigrant labour' - most big businesses in this country do not rely on cheap immigrant labour, they rely on more skilled labour. For them, the case for remaining is far more to do with economic stability and inside access to the European market. Furthermore, in terms of workers' right, you have to be aware that it is the Brexit politicians who are agitating for deregulation of the labour market and the removal of restrictions to businesses, big and small, to making a profit without the hindrance of EU regulations which include better pay and conditions for workers, as well as very important environmental protections, which they believe inhibit businesses making profit. This is absolutely the case made by all the pundits in 'Brexit the movie'. As a supporter of workers' rights, I suggest you think long and hard before voting out. A vote to Brexit could see workers right and conditions turned back towards those times beloved of the pundits and politicians in the Brexit movie, the Victorian times.

[jmelanie]

I don't think it's that simple Vesps. It's true, big businesses want to remain in Europe, but it's nothing to do with 'cheap immigrant labour' - most big businesses in this country do not rely on cheap immigrant labour, they rely on more skilled labour. For them, the case for remaining is far more to do with economic stability and inside access to the European market. Furthermore, in terms of workers' right, you have to be aware that it is the Brexit politicians who are agitating for deregulation of the labour market and the removal of restrictions to businesses, big and small, to making a profit without the hindrance of EU regulations which include better pay and conditions for workers, as well as very important environmental protections, which they believe inhibit businesses making profit. This is absolutely the case made by all the pundits in 'Brexit the movie'. As a supporter of workers' rights, I suggest you think long and hard before voting out. A vote to Brexit could see workers right and conditions turned back towards those times beloved of the pundits and politicians in the Brexit movie, the Victorian times.

More scare tactics. Going back to workers' rights and conditions of Victorian times. Really. Next thing you'll be saying we're going to send young boys down the mines.

[Hubble]

More scare tactics. Going back to workers' rights and conditions of Victorian times. Really. Next thing you'll be saying we're going to send young boys down the mines.

They're not 'scare tactics'. I have never resorted to scare tactics (also note the use of the conditional word 'could'). I am referring directly to Brexit the movie, where several of the people arguing for Brexit reference the golden Victorian age as an example of how they'd like the UK economy to be run. You however are resorting to a straw man argument, jm. Because the fact is that deregulation is the number one issue cited by every single pundit and politician in that movie. The case I have cited above is based entirely on that. Workers' rights are definitely under threat if we Brexit.

[jmelanie]

They're not 'scare tactics'. I have never resorted to scare tactics (also note the use of the conditional word 'could'). I am referring directly to Brexit the movie, where several of the people arguing for Brexit reference the golden Victorian age as an example of how they'd like the UK economy to be run. You however are resorting to a straw man argument, jm. Because the fact is that deregulation is the number one issue cited by every single pundit and politician in that movie. The case I have cited above is based entirely on that. Workers' rights are definitely under threat if we Brexit.

Whether or not we are in or out of the EU, worker's rights will basically be determined by the government of the day. Even if the vote goes to stay in the EU (especially if it is a small majority), concessions will need to be made to the Brexiters. This will probably included clarification of the social chapter (it is still not clear whether or not the U.K. is in or out and to what degree). On the other hand if the vote goes to the Brexiters, concessions will need to be made to those who wanted to stay in the EU. So it is possible the workers could gain more if we leave the EU than if we stay in.

[Hubble]

Whether or not we are in or out of the EU, worker's rights will basically be determined by the government of the day. Even if the vote goes to stay in the EU (especially if it is a small majority), concessions will need to be made to the Brexiters. This will probably included clarification of the social chapter (it is still not clear whether or not the U.K. is in or out and to what degree). On the other hand if the vote goes to the Brexiters, concessions will need to be made to those who wanted to stay in the EU. So it is possible the workers could gain more if we leave the EU than if we stay in.

Yes, I agree with you in principle, that is a good analysis. However, the 'government of the day', in the event of Brexit, would most likely be a more right wing version of the one we have now. It could well have Boris Johnson as its PM. All of that points to an even more neoliberal attitude to business that the one we have now. The majority of the politicians I've seen who support Brexit are strongly in favour of deregulation - Johnson himself wrote an article in the Telegraph lauding TTIP in glowing terms - and I think most of us understand that TTIP is basically about business interests trumping workers', ordinary people's and even sovereign government's interests.

Therefore I think it is a very legitimate concern in the event of a Brexit that workers' rights and general conditions for ordinary people in this country - far from being better as most make in the Brexit case, could be far worse.

I accept - fully - that this is based on supposition - but all we have to go on in this debate is likely outcomes based on the evidence we have - so I think it is a rational analysis.

[jmelanie]

Yes, I agree with you in principle, that is a good analysis. However, the 'government of the day', in the event of Brexit, would most likely be a more right wing version of the one we have now. It could well have Boris Johnson as its PM. All of that points to an even more neoliberal attitude to business that the one we have now. The majority of the politicians I've seen who support Brexit are strongly in favour of deregulation - Johnson himself wrote an article in the Telegraph lauding TTIP in glowing terms - and I think most of us understand that TTIP is basically about business interests trumping workers', ordinary people's and even sovereign government's interests.

Therefore I think it is a very legitimate concern in the event of a Brexit that workers' rights and general conditions for ordinary people in this country - far from being better as most make in the Brexit case, could be far worse.

I accept - fully - that this is based on supposition - but all we have to go on in this debate is likely outcomes based on the evidence we have - so I think it is a rational analysis.

At the moment the odds are on Hillary Clinton becoming next president and she has indicated that she is against TTIP (as has Trump but he could change his mind). By the way an American news programme asked citizens if they thought we should stay in the EU. Half of the people asked didn't even know we were in it (I think they confuse the EU with the Euro).

[Shepherds Mush]

Someone up the top has really upset Rupert Murdoch recently. Big double spread centre page Brexit poster for the poor people to put in their windows in today's paper.

Classic Sun

[Hubble]

At the moment the odds are on Hillary Clinton becoming next president and she has indicated that she is against TTIP (as has Trump but he could change his mind). By the way an American news programme asked citizens if they thought we should stay in the EU. Half of the people asked didn't even know we were in it (I think they confuse the EU with the Euro).

My point about neoliberal Brexiteers still stands though.

[Olly]

Someone up the top has really upset Rupert Murdoch recently. Big double spread centre page Brexit poster for the poor people to put in their windows in today's paper.

And your local shop will give you 4 bits of Bluetack too

[Timmy the Doc]

RIP Jo Cox. Together we are stronger.

[gaza09]

RIP Jo Cox. Together we are stronger.

Pretty low to try and make political gain from a senseless murder