Europe. In or out?

[vanhoop]

Thats what it boils down to.
Vote on what we're led to believe, by people who nearly always have their own agenda or are basing their opinions on supposition. Or vote on the facts as we know them. Leaving means we're not dictated to by unelected EU officials and we will have more power to control our borders.
As has been said, it's the low paid and construction workers in particular who have suffered the most. Your average middle class family are loving it. Cheaper extensions/loft conversions and their houses cleaned and ridiculously named children cared for by someone who charges peanuts. No disrespect to anybody who comes to Britain for a better life, in fact hats off to them for having the gumption to do it. At some point however, infrastructure can't cope and in this climate of savage cuts to schools, social housing and the NHS, a line has to be drawn.

Hallejuah , the way I see it is that the majority work a 9-5 in offices and don't actually see what's happening on the street and in homes all over London . Their minds are made up by what they see on the telly, Mrs van is the same . Hasn't a clue in all honesty what's going on because she don't see it.

[Itsonlyagame]

Hallejuah , the way I see it is that the majority work a 9-5 in offices and don't actually see what's happening on the street and in homes all over London . Their minds are made up by what they see on the telly, Mrs van is the same . Hasn't a clue in all honesty what's going on because she don't see it.

Yes mate, and you can bet your bottom dollar if your average white collar worker had their wages driven down they'd soon be up in arms about it all. Because a lot of people look at builders, cleaners etc as being at the lower end of the intelligence spectrum, our opinion is deemed to be irrelevant, or more bizarrely racist.
My grandparents on both sides came to London from Ireland in the 50s to better their lot. The difference then was the country was expanding massively post war and was crying out for labour to cope with demand. There was a programme the other night about how the Irish almost single handedly built modern London. As we all know there was also a large influx of migrants from commonwealth countries too. They all got a hard time when they came here, signs up at bed and breakfasts around London saying no blacks, no Irish, no dogs. Back then it was pure bigotry based on lack of understanding about other cultures and what they could offer to this nation. Eastern Europeans are no different, they just want to improve their lives. The difference now is we are still in the midst of a world recession. Growth is poor, massive national debt leading to savage cuts to the health service, less school places, housing etc etc and people worried about jobs/wages.
Hardly the climate to allow uncontrolled immigration. When you think about it it's fu€King ludicrous. A poster on this thread said he'd seen a lot of Asian and Hispanics in his area with vote out t shirts on and thought it was some sort of conspiracy.
Ridiculous, they, like a lot of other people who were born or have already migrated here, can see that the continuation of the EU's free movement of labour policy will adversely affect them, it's that simple.
Couple that with the fact that there are certain people who are desperate to enter this country to carry out terrorist attacks and open borders make this more likely, im really struggling to see why anyone would vote in.
All that blarney about economic meltdown and the repercussions potentially lasting a lifetime, it's all guesswork.
What is a fact is if we'd joined the euro and had our interest rates controlled by someone else, we'd have been up the creek a lot worse and for lot longer than we have been.
The European master plan is flawed and will all come crashing down one day. It won't be plain sailing if we leave but better to get out now and forge new relationships than be part of their obsessions.
They already dislike us for our island mentality. If we vote to stay that'll be the green light for them to turn the screws on us and ram even more of their unwanted ideologies down our throats.
No thanks.

[Hertford Hoop]

Yes mate, and you can bet your bottom dollar if your average white collar worker had their wages driven down they'd soon be up in arms about it all. Because a lot of people look at builders, cleaners etc as being at the lower end of the intelligence spectrum, our opinion is deemed to be irrelevant, or more bizarrely racist.
My grandparents on both sides came to London from Ireland in the 50s to better their lot. The difference then was the country was expanding massively post war and was crying out for labour to cope with demand. There was a programme the other night about how the Irish almost single handedly built modern London. As we all know there was also a large influx of migrants from commonwealth countries too. They all got a hard time when they came here, signs up at bed and breakfasts around London saying no blacks, no Irish, no dogs. Back then it was pure bigotry based on lack of understanding about other cultures and what they could offer to this nation. Eastern Europeans are no different, they just want to improve their lives. The difference now is we are still in the midst of a world recession. Growth is poor, massive national debt leading to savage cuts to the health service, less school places, housing etc etc and people worried about jobs/wages.
Hardly the climate to allow uncontrolled immigration. When you think about it it's fu€King ludicrous. A poster on this thread said he'd seen a lot of Asian and Hispanics in his area with vote out t shirts on and thought it was some sort of conspiracy.
Ridiculous, they, like a lot of other people who were born or have already migrated here, can see that the continuation of the EU's free movement of labour policy will adversely affect them, it's that simple.
Couple that with the fact that there are certain people who are desperate to enter this country to carry out terrorist attacks and open borders make this more likely, im really struggling to see why anyone would vote in.
All that blarney about economic meltdown and the repercussions potentially lasting a lifetime, it's all guesswork.
What is a fact is if we'd joined the euro and had our interest rates controlled by someone else, we'd have been up the creek a lot worse and for lot longer than we have been.
The European master plan is flawed and will all come crashing down one day. It won't be plain sailing if we leave but better to get out now and forge new relationships than be part of their obsessions.
They already dislike us for our island mentality. If we vote to stay that'll be the green light for them to turn the screws on us and ram even more of their unwanted ideologies down our throats.No thanks.

For me that is the biggest concern, a green light to go even further.

[jmelanie]

For me that is the biggest concern, a green light to go even further.

None of the stay campaign have indicated what will happen if we vote to stay in. Does that mean that we will have to wait another 40 years before having another chance at having our say on Europe, or will we have the opportunity (like in Ireland) for a referendum every time Europe wants to make a significant change (like admitting more members or requiring everybody to join the Eurozone). If it was the latter, I think more people would vote to stay in.

[Hoop-du-Jour]

None of the stay campaign have indicated what will happen if we vote to stay in. Does that mean that we will have to wait another 40 years before having another chance at having our say on Europe, or will we have the opportunity (like in Ireland) for a referendum every time Europe wants to make a significant change (like admitting more members or requiring everybody to join the Eurozone). If it was the latter, I think more people would vote to stay in.

All they can offer is threats and negativity. Absolutely nothing positive about remaining has been mentioned, just the continual conveyor belt of theories of financial meltdown.

There is nothing positive about remaining in the EU is all that one can surmise from the remain camp and that's about as honest as they've been throughout their campaign.

[lymehoop]

Yes mate, and you can bet your bottom dollar if your average white collar worker had their wages driven down they'd soon be up in arms about it all. Because a lot of people look at builders, cleaners etc as being at the lower end of the intelligence spectrum, our opinion is deemed to be irrelevant, or more bizarrely racist.
My grandparents on both sides came to London from Ireland in the 50s to better their lot. The difference then was the country was expanding massively post war and was crying out for labour to cope with demand. There was a programme the other night about how the Irish almost single handedly built modern London. As we all know there was also a large influx of migrants from commonwealth countries too. They all got a hard time when they came here, signs up at bed and breakfasts around London saying no blacks, no Irish, no dogs. Back then it was pure bigotry based on lack of understanding about other cultures and what they could offer to this nation. Eastern Europeans are no different, they just want to improve their lives. The difference now is we are still in the midst of a world recession. Growth is poor, massive national debt leading to savage cuts to the health service, less school places, housing etc etc and people worried about jobs/wages.
Hardly the climate to allow uncontrolled immigration. When you think about it it's fu€King ludicrous. A poster on this thread said he'd seen a lot of Asian and Hispanics in his area with vote out t shirts on and thought it was some sort of conspiracy.
Ridiculous, they, like a lot of other people who were born or have already migrated here, can see that the continuation of the EU's free movement of labour policy will adversely affect them, it's that simple.
Couple that with the fact that there are certain people who are desperate to enter this country to carry out terrorist attacks and open borders make this more likely, im really struggling to see why anyone would vote in.
All that blarney about economic meltdown and the repercussions potentially lasting a lifetime, it's all guesswork.
What is a fact is if we'd joined the euro and had our interest rates controlled by someone else, we'd have been up the creek a lot worse and for lot longer than we have been.
The European master plan is flawed and will all come crashing down one day. It won't be plain sailing if we leave but better to get out now and forge new relationships than be part of their obsessions.
They already dislike us for our island mentality. If we vote to stay that'll be the green light for them to turn the screws on us and ram even more of their unwanted ideologies down our throats.
No thanks.

excellent post, this is not about black or white, left or right. It's about the sheer lunacy of having uncontrolled immigration and the consequences of that

[Stanley]

I'm 100% OUT but it's got nothing to do with immigration for me. I'm out for totally different reasons as I highlighted earlier in the thread. It's clear to me that many people are voting out but often for very different reasons, which is fine of course and just shows how wrong it all is on so many levels.

[Ramsey is god]

Rubbish eh ?
So your average middle class homeowner who decides to have an extension built doesn't benefit from the huge influx of Eastern European labour which has swamped the building trade. Not only has this influx driven down labour costs, Eastern European builders are more inclined to accept huge amounts of cash for their services thus saving the punter even more money in tax. Or the fact that the vast majority of nannies and cleaners are also now Eastern European for the same reasons. Those are the facts FACTS.

No way of ever proving these sort of facts, but would guess for every eastern European builder not paying tax, there is over double the amount of British builders not paying tax. Same as the taxi world, majority of them dont declare all their income. Unfortunately will always be the case for these type of cash in hand trades. Although easy for me to say not being a builder facing this sort of competition, but surely any trade/job in the world, you get paid accordingly by how hard it is to find someone else to do the job.

cant understand anyone's argument that is "its just scaremongering and lies about financial meltdown, its all guesswork!" well surely any plan on leaving the EU at this stage would be complete guesswork as well.

Anyone who actually believe if we leave the EU, we will all of a sudden close our borders to eastern Europeans is extremely naive.

[FurtiveFox]

Is complicated. I'm in the remain camp but would like reform. If you speak to other main nationalities (Germany, France etc) the average person has the same concerns on open borders etc. They don't want it any more than we do. If the EU can be reformed we would be far stronger in it. With any luck if we do remain that can be a catalyst for reform, a wake up call. It also acts as a checks and balances against our own Government who I have less trust in and who are totally unrepresentative of the people. To say if we left we could govern ourselves totally ignores the reality of our Government and the failure of democracy in this country.

Not all immigration is from the EU so coming out of the EU will not solve that. We need immigrants in various industries. Health the obvious one but also large skills gap in engineering, tech industries. We have an aging population and our dependency on immigrants will increase not decrease.

A lot of SMEs are largely dependent on immigrant labour. If they lose a large chunk of that labour they will either go out of business or have to put their prices up. That potentially will have a huge knock on effect, particularly for the man in the street.

Benefits seems to have been made a major issue but the average immigrant claims less than the average Brit ... on a personal basis I have no time for scroungers regardless of where they were born (and no I'm not saying all those claiming benefits are scroungers). Hard working people, regardless again of nationality, are an asset to this country.

[Shepherds Mush]

A lot of SMEs are largely dependent on immigrant labour. If they lose a large chunk of that labour they will either go out of business or have to put their prices up.

Or they could tap into the millions of unemployed Brits and pay the same minimum wage.

[Itsonlyagame]

No way of ever proving these sort of facts, but would guess for every eastern European builder not paying tax, there is over double the amount of British builders not paying tax. Same as the taxi world, majority of them dont declare all their income. Unfortunately will always be the case for these type of cash in hand trades. Although easy for me to say not being a builder facing this sort of competition, but surely any trade/job in the world, you get paid accordingly by how hard it is to find someone else to do the job.

cant understand anyone's argument that is "its just scaremongering and lies about financial meltdown, its all guesswork!" well surely any plan on leaving the EU at this stage would be complete guesswork as well.

Anyone who actually believe if we leave the EU, we will all of a sudden close our borders to eastern Europeans is extremely naive.

I struggle to take you seriously Ramsey.
In an earlier post you said people who say that migrants are taking jobs which could be taken by people already living here are racist and it was slanderous to say such things. You even compared them to people who say all Muslims are terrorists. Yet in the very same sentence you said those same people are, in your view, usually the ones who are too lazy to get off their ar$es and look for work. If that isn't slander I don't know what is.
As for unproven facts, anyone with an ounce of common sense will know that if a particular market is flooded with labour, it will adversely affect wages. You've said exactly that in your post above but are trying to disagree with me on it.
Bizarre.

[Ramsey is god]

I struggle to take you seriously Ramsey.
In an earlier post you said people who say that migrants are taking jobs which could be taken by people already living here are racist and it was slanderous to say such things. You even compared them to people who say all Muslims are terrorists. Yet in the very same sentence you said those same people are, in your view, usually the ones who are too lazy to get off their ar$es and look for work. If that isn't slander I don't know what is.
As for unproven facts, anyone with an ounce of common sense will know that if a particular market is flooded with labour, it will adversely affect wages. You've said exactly that in your post above but are trying to disagree with me on it.
Bizarre.

explained the rascist comment numerous times....fully justified in my opinion. please re-read, cant be bothered to re-explain every 5 posts.

[Itsonlyagame]

explained the rascist comment numerous times....fully justified in my opinion. please re-read, cant be bothered to re-explain every 5 posts.

What about the argument you seem to be having with yourself regarding supply and demand of labour affecting wages.
Would you like some help with that one ?

[gaza09]

Is complicated. I'm in the remain camp but would like reform. If you speak to other main nationalities (Germany, France etc) the average person has the same concerns on open borders etc. They don't want it any more than we do. If the EU can be reformed we would be far stronger in it. With any luck if we do remain that can be a catalyst for reform, a wake up call. It also acts as a checks and balances against our own Government who I have less trust in and who are totally unrepresentative of the people. To say if we left we could govern ourselves totally ignores the reality of our Government and the failure of democracy in this country.

Not all immigration is from the EU so coming out of the EU will not solve that. We need immigrants in various industries. Health the obvious one but also large skills gap in engineering, tech industries. We have an aging population and our dependency on immigrants will increase not decrease.

A lot of SMEs are largely dependent on immigrant labour. If they lose a large chunk of that labour they will either go out of business or have to put their prices up. That potentially will have a huge knock on effect, particularly for the man in the street.

Benefits seems to have been made a major issue but the average immigrant claims less than the average Brit ... on a personal basis I have no time for scroungers regardless of where they were born (and no I'm not saying all those claiming benefits are scroungers). Hard working people, regardless again of nationality, are an asset to this country.

We have been in the EU for over 40 years and have failed to get the reforms we want.
Cameron went to renegotiate our membership with the EU a few months back, with the threat of us leaving up his sleeve, and we got no reforms.
The EU don't do reform, they have a set agenda of a federal European state and nothing will get in the way of it.

Wake up, if you agree the EU needs reform then the only logical thing to do is vote leave,
Because there will be NO reforms

[Ramsey is god]

I struggle to take you seriously Ramsey.
In an earlier post you said people who say that migrants are taking jobs which could be taken by people already living here are racist and it was slanderous to say such things. You even compared them to people who say all Muslims are terrorists. Yet in the very same sentence you said those same people are, in your view, usually the ones who are too lazy to get off their ar$es and look for work. If that isn't slander I don't know what is.
As for unproven facts, anyone with an ounce of common sense will know that if a particular market is flooded with labour, it will adversely affect wages. You've said exactly that in your post above but are trying to disagree with me on it.
Bizarre.

on my point on the labour workers side of it was more - if you want to be paid more, learn a skill that is obscure and not everyone can do - just didnt want to quite word it like that. The answer isnt, kick the eastern Europeans out, then we can bump the prices back up.