Europe. In or out?

[rodders]

I voted out I am not far right I think it's disgusting the minority of the electorate resort to branding the majority as racist thick working class idiots.

[Ćock-a-Hoop]

I see the "Leave" victory as a positive development.

I follow the rationale of all the gloomy forecasts, but I consider most of them to be short-term outcomes, against which a release from EU shackles is well worth the price. It is a huge challenge for whoever takes over the helm in the UK, both now and after the next election - but Britain succeeded economically before 1973, and I believe that it has the resources, inventiveness and tenacity to overcome these obstacles and to thrive once more as a free-trade nation - coupled with low regulation and its own justice system. The horizons of our vision are so clouded by having to work for so many years under the Brussels yoke, that we appear tentative when given the opportunity to prove the worth of independence and, above all, self-determination.

Some refer to us having 'derided the so-called experts', and their 'well-intended advice'. These experts have a forecasting knack that has been proved wrong on every single occasion that matters - and that goes for the three major credit rating agencies too. They may downgrade our sovereign debt (and I am fully aware of the hazards of our current account deficit) but I believe that a post-Carney, post-Osborne Central Banker worth his/her salt will steer us through that one.

In 1945 Germany was in a state of utter devastation - physically and financially - but the genius of Ludwig Erhard disregarded conventional economic wisdom and introduced policies that ran counter to those of Keynes and his demand-management cronies, and got German industry and productivity going at a pace that has not slackened to this day. He got Germans off rationing and onto sound money long before Britain and America. He was a free thinker: when counselled by his US peers that his policies would fail, he replied " my own advisers tell me the same thing!"

To return: Brexit is not, and was not, the problem. The problem is the widening gulf between the ultra-rich and the working classes - but for that you can thank the money-printing lunatics we call central bankers. Where do you think all that money goes? Not to the poor, certainly. To quote from one of my own recent articles: "No one, not even the chief of BP, should be paid a salary of £14 million, and no opaque assemblage of facts and figures thrust before a remuneration committee can justify the obscenity of paying a man more in one month than many will earn in a lifetime of work...... When the FTSE 100 Index stands at the same level as 18 years ago and 10% below its peak, why has executive pay over the same period more than trebled, with a rising disparity between average and top pay?"

Paradoxically, this has little directly to do with membership of the EU, but rather the pursuit of insane economic policies in every advanced economy, EU included. Brexit simply revealed the nexus of frustration of the disenfranchised millions who saw it (felt it, rather) as an opportunity to upend the iniquities of policies they didn't understand intellectually, but detested instinctively. They too, after all, are entitled to refer to Britain as "my country". So their reasons for voting to leave the EU are not necessarily rational, but strongly visceral, and hence are different from mine, and from those of the economists who are able objectively to observe where the blind pursuit of EU-wide fallacies are leading.

I don't know which of the doom-laden outcomes enumerated by Remainers will manifest beyond the period of short-term market disturbances and distortions - nor does anyone know. But I suspect that none of them is permanent, and I would hate to rely on the idiots running central banks or power-crazy EU mega-configurations to plan the way forward for us.

[gaza09]

But they are on the right of the Tory party and would represent a disturbing trend in our politics, which indeed Brexit has done with much of the vote coming from the extremes of our society. Most moderates naturally went for the sensible safe option of remain. That's what we tend to do.I am trying hard to see the positives of Brexit - I honestly am, but it still seems crazy to me.

They are Right wing, they look right of the Conservative party because Cameron and Osbourne have dragged the party to the centre. Borris, Gove, Leadsome etc... Are true conservatives.

[Jeems]

But they are on the right of the Tory party and would represent a disturbing trend in our politics, which indeed Brexit has done with much of the vote coming from the extremes of our society. Most moderates naturally went for the sensible safe option of remain. That's what we tend to do.I am trying hard to see the positives of Brexit - I honestly am, but it still seems crazy to me.

The "extreme" vote did not in anyway swing the result. In the 2015 General Election, the BNP received less than 2000 votes. In the London Mayor vote, the Britain First candidate received around 30,000 votes. I dont have actual figures or much knowledge of any other so called extreme groups but the total membership numbers I imagine would come in at less than 100,000 - probably a lot less. Saying "much of the vote" came from these people is ridiculous.

Might I remind you that 17 million voted leave.

[vanhoop]

The "extreme" vote did not in anyway swing the result. In the 2015 General Election, the BNP received less than 2000 votes. In the London Mayor vote, the Britain First candidate received around 30,000 votes. I dont have actual figures or much knowledge of any other so called extreme groups but the total membership numbers I imagine would come in at less than 100,000 - probably a lot less. Saying "much of the vote" came from these people is ridiculous.

Might I remind you that 17 million voted leave.

exactly jeems , what is it that warton doesn't quite understand ?

[Snaxo]

They are Right wing, they look right of the Conservative party because Cameron and Osbourne have dragged the party to the centre. Borris, Gove, Leadsome etc... Are true conservatives.

Well if that's what true conservatives look like, bring me something else and quick. Up until this lot came in, I've been a Tory party voter all my life - but no more. Absolute scoundrels as far as I'm concerned, the lot of them (you can add Hunt, Osbourne and Morgan into that selection also).

[Snaxo]

Can't have a soft exit. Would not only be a total betrayal of the majority that wanted out, but a complete dereliction of duty.

It looks like Theresa May will be the next PM and my prediction is that she will be one of the shortest serving in history if she turns out to be as weak as the last one and fails to deliver what we need, want and deserve.

Honestly mate, I'd be very surprised it it ends up being anything other than a soft exit. Its seems pretty clear (from how things seem to be progressing at the moment) that most of the 'goals' of the leave camp will be (at best) watered down, and at worst may not happen at all. We shall see I guess. And for all that (not much change) the country has to go through all sorts of economic turmoil in the (hopefully only) short term. Great. :/

It's becoming clearer and clearer that this referendum was a victory for precisely no-one, including the politicians ... who it seemed to backfire on whichever camp they were in !

[James1979]

Can't have a soft exit. Would not only be a total betrayal of the majority that wanted out, but a complete dereliction of duty.

It looks like Theresa May will be the next PM and my prediction is that she will be one of the shortest serving in history if she turns out to be as weak as the last one and fails to deliver what we need, want and deserve.

Say she does do a soft exit. She's in charge of Tories and Corbyn in labour. You really think she'll lose? Labour got elected when it became more middle of the road, Tories when they became more middle of road. Move too much to right or left and you become unelectable in my view. Labour have no chance with Corbyn in charge

[Snaxo]

Say she does do a soft exit. She's in charge of Tories and Corbyn in labour. You really think she'll lose? Labour got elected when it became more middle of the road, Tories when they became more middle of road. Move too much to right or left and you become unelectable in my view. Labour have no chance with Corbyn in charge

Agreed. A decent, principled man but no where near 'statesman' like enough to be electable as party leader. They need someone like Andy Burnham to take over. What a mess the whole thing is. You'd think this is a prime-opportunity for Labour to have a chance of winning a general election, but they're in such a mess now there's no chance - doh!

[Snaxo]

I see the "Leave" victory as a positive development.

I follow the rationale of all the gloomy forecasts, but I consider most of them to be short-term outcomes, against which a release from EU shackles is well worth the price. It is a huge challenge for whoever takes over the helm in the UK, both now and after the next election - but Britain succeeded economically before 1973, and I believe that it has the resources, inventiveness and tenacity to overcome these obstacles and to thrive once more as a free-trade nation - coupled with low regulation and its own justice system. The horizons of our vision are so clouded by having to work for so many years under the Brussels yoke, that we appear tentative when given the opportunity to prove the worth of independence and, above all, self-determination.

Some refer to us having 'derided the so-called experts', and their 'well-intended advice'. These experts have a forecasting knack that has been proved wrong on every single occasion that matters - and that goes for the three major credit rating agencies too. They may downgrade our sovereign debt (and I am fully aware of the hazards of our current account deficit) but I believe that a post-Carney, post-Osborne Central Banker worth his/her salt will steer us through that one.

In 1945 Germany was in a state of utter devastation - physically and financially - but the genius of Ludwig Erhard disregarded conventional economic wisdom and introduced policies that ran counter to those of Keynes and his demand-management cronies, and got German industry and productivity going at a pace that has not slackened to this day. He got Germans off rationing and onto sound money long before Britain and America. He was a free thinker: when counselled by his US peers that his policies would fail, he replied " my own advisers tell me the same thing!"

To return: Brexit is not, and was not, the problem. The problem is the widening gulf between the ultra-rich and the working classes - but for that you can thank the money-printing lunatics we call central bankers. Where do you think all that money goes? Not to the poor, certainly. To quote from one of my own recent articles: "No one, not even the chief of BP, should be paid a salary of £14 million, and no opaque assemblage of facts and figures thrust before a remuneration committee can justify the obscenity of paying a man more in one month than many will earn in a lifetime of work...... When the FTSE 100 Index stands at the same level as 18 years ago and 10% below its peak, why has executive pay over the same period more than trebled, with a rising disparity between average and top pay?"

Paradoxically, this has little directly to do with membership of the EU, but rather the pursuit of insane economic policies in every advanced economy, EU included. Brexit simply revealed the nexus of frustration of the disenfranchised millions who saw it (felt it, rather) as an opportunity to upend the iniquities of policies they didn't understand intellectually, but detested instinctively. They too, after all, are entitled to refer to Britain as "my country". So their reasons for voting to leave the EU are not necessarily rational, but strongly visceral, and hence are different from mine, and from those of the economists who are able objectively to observe where the blind pursuit of EU-wide fallacies are leading.

I don't know which of the doom-laden outcomes enumerated by Remainers will manifest beyond the period of short-term market disturbances and distortions - nor does anyone know. But I suspect that none of them is permanent, and I would hate to rely on the idiots running central banks or power-crazy EU mega-configurations to plan the way forward for us.

What a great first post - welcome to the forum. Well articulated.

Actually, in principal I agree with a lot of what you said - I just don't share your optimism that we can navigate out of this in the way you hope. I don't think we have the calibre of politicians, or resources in general, to do so. I think we are also far too heavily reliant on the financial services industry and we don't even know what the plans of many of the big (non UK owned) players there are yet.

I also don't share the level of pessimism you have regarding 'EU shackles'. I still believe there are many positives to partnering at that level with our counterparts in Europe. It's far from perfect, we all know that, but I'd prefer a seat at the table to not having one.

[bakes8]

Very few conviction politicians in the Country anymore. Too many Career MP's who have no real solid views on anything.

That's why I'm going with Leasdom, at least she stands for something, not Teresa May who was a reluctant (?!) remainer who came up with she 'can't guarantee the what would happen to the EU nationals living in this Country'. Absolute potty and inflammatory. May as well kept that Bell Cameron in charge, another flake.

This Country will be fine once a new strong PM is in charge, and divisive people like George Osborne and Mark Carney are shown the door.

[jmelanie]

I think one of the main results of Brexit will be our ability to trade with whomever we like. The EU is trying to get trade agreements but it takes them forever, and by the time all of the countries have had their say it amounts to almost nothing. There is a world out there apart from Europe and a lot of these countries are up and coming (India, Brazil etc) and will soon become more important than a lot of European countries which are going into decline.

This is not something we will have to negotiate with the EU. It is something I believe we are already looking at and hopefully by the time we leave, some of these agreements will already be in place.

The advantage we have which has not been mentioned is that we are an English speaking country and the language of trade and finance is English.

[jmelanie]

Very few conviction politicians in the Country anymore. Too many Career MP's who have no real solid views on anything.

That's why I'm going with Leasdom, at least she stands for something, not Teresa May who was a reluctant (?!) remainer who came up with she 'can't guarantee the what would happen to the EU nationals living in this Country'. Absolute potty and inflammatory. May as well kept that Bell Cameron in charge, another flake.

This Country will be fine once a new strong PM is in charge, and divisive people like George Osborne and Mark Carney are shown the door.

Actually Theresa May was correct when she said that she cannot guarantee what will happen to the EU nationals living in this country. Suppose she guaranteed that they all could stay and then the other EU countries decided that British nationals could not remain in EU countries. This would not give her a very good bargaining position.

[bakes8]

Actually Theresa May was correct when she said that she cannot guarantee what will happen to the EU nationals living in this country. Suppose she guaranteed that they all could stay and then the other EU countries decided that British nationals could not remain in EU countries. This would not give her a very good bargaining position.

Nope. What she could and should've said is EU nationals currently living and working in this country won't be deported. There is 0% chance of anyone currently living here being sent 'home' because they are from the EU. Anyone saying anything else is talking shite.

[Snaxo]

I think one of the main results of Brexit will be our ability to trade with whomever we like. The EU is trying to get trade agreements but it takes them forever, and by the time all of the countries have had their say it amounts to almost nothing. There is a world out there apart from Europe and a lot of these countries are up and coming (India, Brazil etc) and will soon become more important than a lot of European countries which are going into decline.

This is not something we will have to negotiate with the EU. It is something I believe we are already looking at and hopefully by the time we leave, some of these agreements will already be in place.

The advantage we have which has not been mentioned is that we are an English speaking country and the language of trade and finance is English.

Maybe, we'll see. It seems we'll have to rely on non-uk people to negotiate our new trade deals in any case!

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/the-uk-doesnt-have-enough-skilled-trade-negotiators-for-brexit-so-were-going-to-have-to-hire-foreigners--ZyxdleNdBrW