Geng

[kingy10]

As our resident stat man and Adel lover (top 4 chance creater in the PL), I would be interested in your take on what's changed during the last two games.

For my take I would say our counter attacking football has improved by Adel not being the go to man, the speed in which we move the ball has dramatically improved and also we seem to be getting our wide men into much better positions.

[QPR71]

and swp dont run offside twice in 5 minutes cos adel doesnt release the bal

[MYU]

I think people should lay off him, we should be supporting him to play a new role within this new system. I actually think Adel could score and assist a few.

How can you go from being a good player who wants to score and win, to one of the worst over night.

[rickyranger]

Be very suprised if you hear from either him or the other Tarrabt fans, unless it is too quote a few more pointless stats to support their flawed claim that Tarrabt is the the new Messi. I have been saying it all season watch the team not the player. Tarrabt slows the play down and because he comes short to get the ball allows the opposition to press the ball. He is child like in wanting to get the ball all the time no matter what else is on and in doing so takes the space others need. Poor finisher, slow to see a pass, can't defend or head the ball and is completely self obsessed.

Yes he has ability but simply doesn't know how to use it for the benefit of the team, also has no respect for his team mates, fans or the club. One decent game and he tells us he is off to Barcelona or the like, trouble is no one wants him. Fact is its results that count and we have as many wins in the last two games without him that we had all season with him. Strange not even on the bench yesterday, lots of rumors about bust up and storming off which wouldn't suprise me as he is like a Child. I have said many times he is not rated in football circles and will end up playing in the French second division.

[MattyRangers]

Why do people revel in diggin people out? What ever happened to simply being chuffed we are winning games? Couldn't care who was on the pitch tbh it could be Robert Mugabe up front for all I care so long as we win.

[Rangers77]

Can't fault this logic. And that's not beating up on Adel. And we wouldn't win playing Mugabe up front..... Well probably not.

[kingy10]

No question he is an amazingly talented player and I love skilful players. I just think the Premier League is all about pace, strength and moving the ball quickly. Look at Hoilett and Townsend yesterday, direct, strong, creative all done at fast pace and high intensity. Nearly everything they did had an end product.

[oldskoolturk]

Why do people revel in diggin people out? What ever happened to simply being chuffed we are winning games? Couldn't care who was on the pitch tbh it could be Robert Mugabe up front for all I care so long as we win.

Because Matty it's Adels fault that we are bottom of the league, his and his alone. Nothing to do with having a manager that didn't have a clue, a rb who couldn't care less, a strike force that haven't been fit all season, a striker who couldnt care less, several players lauded as big signings woefully underperforming, having 6 different players playing centre back or having wingers who either run the ball out of play or straight into the defender.

Nope it's all because Adel isn't quick enough when he gets it.

[rickyranger]

Why do people revel in diggin people out? What ever happened to simply being chuffed we are winning games? Couldn't care who was on the pitch tbh it could be Robert Mugabe up front for all I care so long as we win.

Absolutely right it's about the team performing and doing well not defending one player who if others made the same errors would be crucified

[QPR71]

No question he is an amazingly talented player and I love skilful players. I just think the Premier League is all about pace, strength and moving the ball quickly. Look at Hoilett and Townsend yesterday, direct, strong, creative all done at fast pace and high intensity. Nearly everything they did had an end product.

agree....dribbling is but one skill of many and should be used judisciously. coaches used to teach only try to beat your man if you have to. a good pass
will be quicker, take out more players, get you forward and more chance of keeping posession.

[toptop]

Why do people revel in diggin people out? What ever happened to simply being chuffed we are winning games? Couldn't care who was on the pitch tbh it could be Robert Mugabe up front for all I care so long as we win.

I hear he has a great shot and Takes no prisoners!.

[Geng]

You know you've made it on WATRBs when you get threads calling you out. This is an important debate though, as a fanbase we need to have it.

Be very suprised if you hear from either him or the other Tarrabt fans, unless it is too quote a few more pointless stats to support their flawed claim that Tarrabt is the the new Messi. I have been saying it all season watch the team not the player. Tarrabt slows the play down and because he comes short to get the ball allows the opposition to press the ball. He is child like in wanting to get the ball all the time no matter what else is on and in doing so takes the space others need. Poor finisher, slow to see a pass, can't defend or head the ball and is completely self obsessed.

Decent points here, especially on allowing the opposition to press us, but I still think you're wrong and that Adel would improve our current side. (I'm going to pretend everything is rosy behind the scenes here, as neither you nor I nor anyone on here really knows about potential post-Dubai bustups)

I think our improved attacking play in the past two matches, such that it exists, is far more down to a) the opposition and b) the addition of Remy, Zamora/Bothroyd and Hoilett than the removal of Taarabt.

Firstly, Southampton are a poor side who play very high up the pitch and leave lots of spaces in behind. We aren't going to play many other sides like that at this level.

Sunderland played a bog standard 442 and again were very easy to play through. The last team to turn up to Loftus Road and play in a similar way got torn apart by a certain A Taarabt.

Adel got a lot of grief for his play during our really tough run in Jan/Feb against far better sides where we would often end up camped out in our own half for long periods at a time. Shame he's not around to reap the rewards against the weaker sides we are playing over the next month.

Most games this season when Adel has played, he's been alongside SWP, Mackie and Cisse. I don't think there is a player in the world who wouldn't slow things down if they received the ball, looked up, and saw their options were a) SWP hiding behind a fullback b) Mackie marking the defender or running in a straight line somewhere unhelpful or c) Cisse stood about either offside or with his hands on his hips thinking about his aftershave range.

When Taarabt has played with Remy he has released him early, eg the goal against West Ham. Adel is still by far our best through ball player. He's not had the chance to play with two good, in form strikers ahead of him all season and I don't see why Adel couldn't fit straight into the team in the role Hoilett has played in either of the last two matches, or in Townsend's position form the last game.

The big difference between what we've had in the last two matches and the games before is the number of runners ahead of the man with the ball. Against Southampton was the first time the whole 'one guy in front of the defence, two CMs, one striker, two wingers, 433 attacking/4141 when defending' formation has really felt like a genuine 433 all season. We've tended to only use it against the good sides who just pin us right back. At St Mary's we were able to press Remy right up against the last man - eg for his goal - and Hoilett could also play higher up. Given the spaces Southampton left in the midfield, I don't think Taarabt would have had to drift around in search of the ball as much as he usually does in that position. We could pass through the gaps to find him on the left, just as we did with Hoilett. Hoilett would look up and usually see Bothroyd and Remy plus one of Park/Granero showing for him. Massive improvement on SWP/Mackie.

Against Sunderland we had two strikers and a winger on the opposite side, all looking to make runs for the winger on the ball. Again, loads more options than Adel has had most of the season. Mind you how many clear cut chances did we actually create? Not all that many. Our first goal was lucky, the other two were wonder strikes. It's not like Hoilett and Townsend provided many chances for Zamora and Remy.

I think we'll get completely murdered by Villa if we go 442 against them or any other side that attacks through the centre though, so I would be surprised to see all of our front four start again anyway.

[Rangers77]

Fair play, Geng. Food for thought. I'd be tempted to use Derry as a shield instead of having BZ up front (but using Bobby from the bench second half). I like the idea of having at them like yesterday though. It's a tough call for Harry and his team.

[Geng]

Don't forget that there is a subtle but big difference between our setup in the promotion year and this season when Adel has played as a no10 in the centre.

The 2010/11 side was a classic 4231. Derry and Faurlin hardly ever got into the box. It would be incredibly rare to see one of them ahead of Adel or one of the wingers. The wide players - Hogan/Smith on the left, Mackie/Routledge on the right - would play very high up, often essentially as wide forwards, and would look to be released in behind. This meant that:

a) Adel would receive the ball and had two wingers ahead of him + Helguson
b) the wingers would occupy the opposition fullbacks (not their own wingers), meaning two fewer players to close Adel down if he beat the first man in centre mid, which he would often do

This season we have played more of a 4411 when Adel has been behind one striker. This isn't nitpicking, the differences are:

- The central midfielders aren't anchored in front of the defence, so they can go forward themselves (compare how often Mbia, Granero, Park etc charge forward to Derry/Faurlin in the promotion year).

- But this means they in turn aren't always covering for the wingers, who have to become wide midfielders rather than wide forwards (this incidentally is why Mackie looks so godawful much of the time - he's a useless right midfielder but an okish wide forward)

....so Adel will often receive the ball ahead of everyone apart from the striker. One runner ahead rather than three. Shearer inadvertently hit on this with his ridiculous MOTD analysis the other night, but he obviously failed to realise he was criticising a system rather than a player...

Personally I would have played a 4231 most of the season, with Adel at the centre, and Remy/Hoilett either side. Not sure we have a premier league quality Derry/Faurlin partnership equivalent though. Maybe Mbia/Granero...

[Geng]

If you want to see Adel making quick, fast passes, look at some of our goals from early in the promotion season. Ephraim, Faurlin and Helguson are all excellent at moving into space and making quick passes, and Adel really fed off that. Many of Mackie's early season goals came from a burst in behind following some one twos between Adel and the others.

Also, consider Routledge's goal against Coventry. The one with the ridiculous Adel pass over the top with the outside of his right foot.

When this season has our right midfielder ever made a run like that....?

Whoever has played there would have been on the halfway line at that point, not making runs off the shoulder of the last man