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Banning Orders (2 yrs old but still topical)

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  • Banning Orders (2 yrs old but still topical)

    Our draconian anti-hooliganism legislation unfairly infringes the free movement of football supporters





    Associating with undesirables? Football fans can come under suspicion for merely standing near known troublemakers. Photograph: Tom Jenkins/Guardian
    Without necessarily ever having been found to have committed a crime, you're put on a secret list that the police keep of people who pose a "risk". Your activities are monitored along with those of others on the list; you're never notified that you're on the list, or told what it means; then you come to court for something relatively minor, maybe swearing in a particular sort of public place, or pushing someone in a crowd, and your life changes.

    The police apply for an order curtailing your movements, you are forced to surrender your passport at certain times, and to report to the police. The application is made on the basis of reports of you associating with other people on the list, the very fact that you have been placed on this list is itself a reason for the police to get their order, and you have to defend yourself against allegations of being complicit in the activities of others who pose a "risk" even when those people can go unnamed, and the officers who have reported incidents go unidentified in the Crown's case against you.

    You therefore cannot challenge directly the witnesses to these incidents, and the aspersion is cast without any clear criteria ever having been given as to what being a "risk" means, or warnings that you may be associating with others who are themselves a "risk". Given this, you would hope that the test for the court in deciding if the police can have their order is a severe one, but the court "must make such an order if it is shown that the person has previously caused or contributed to any violence or disorder in the UK or elsewhere … and if it is satisfied that there are reasonable grounds for believing that a banning order would help prevent [activity-] related violence or disorder in England and Wales or elsewhere". This is, in short, the punishment of future crime.

    You might be forgiven for thinking that I describe in the above paragraph members of a fundamentalist cell, and that the [activity] mentioned above was terrorism, but this is the position that you can find yourself in if you regularly attend football matches.

    A person will have been convicted of some offence, perhaps shoving a rival fan, or swearing at a steward, and they may then find themselves banned from attending their team's matches, have to hand their passport to the police whenever England play abroad, and have to report to a police station regularly. If you forget to hand your passport in, arrest soon follows. There are of course going to be circumstances where these measures might be appropriate. I have prosecuted cases in which police have been seriously assaulted while dealing with large, drunken groups of spectators – although the violence isn't always one way.

    But there are major problems in giving the police these powers with such a low threshold. The court has no discretion to not grant this banning order where "reasonable grounds for believing" that the ban would "help prevent" violence or disorder are established – hardly a heavy burden to prove when the allegation is put that a fan's presence, chants or behaviour may encourage crowd activity resulting in disorder. Even shouting about the onanistic habits of the referee might fall into this category.

    This law came into sharp focus for me this week when before a court came a man who drives a bus as part of the logistical support for away game fixtures. He has been a fan of his club for three decades, and he was never found guilty of any violent crime or disorder until he was prosecuted for public disorder for pushing a member of the public and a steward, causing no injuries and resulting in a fine of several hundred pounds.

    At this point the police told him that he was a "risk" fan, and brought out a large police report of all the times he has facilitated "risk" groups. This man has driven men, women, young, old – anyone who wanted to come and be a part of the away game support for his club. The police report also disclosed that he attended a pub frequented by "risk" supporters of another team, as if to suggest that anybody in the pub knows that they are on these watchlists, or that the pub is advertised as such. On another occasion a bottle is said to have been thrown from the bus by another "risk" fan, who is unnamed in the police report.

    Indeed, nobody else is named in the report, so when this man has the misfortune to be on the same train platform waiting for a to go home from an away match, and an unnamed "risk" fan is alleged to have smashed a bottle on the platform, this is argued to be an act of public disorder somehow connected to this man simply because he is there.

    The legislation seeks to deal with organised football violence by connecting the activities of those who misbehave at football matches, but what it actually does is punish the serious, loyal fans who attend home and away matches, who may well unknowingly fraternise with "risk" fans, may offer them lifts, share train carriages with them, or speak to them in the pub. The present law requires courts to impose drastic limitations on the freedoms of these loyal fans if they make a single mistake which allows the police to draw the inference that these "risk" fans are acting together to encourage each other into further acts of violence and disorder.

    The howling argument in retaliation will be that these people have it coming, that we should not break the law. But if you swear at someone, or push them, even causing minor injury, the reality is that you will not face a tough penalty – unless, that is, you are a football fan. The consequences of the banning order on travel during international tournaments is severe. For no other type of offence of this seriousness are the punishments anywhere near as restrictive or long-lasting. You are also in some cases depriving fans of a great source of joy, their occupation, their passion.

    Men and women should not be held to be guilty for the acts of others with whom they associate, and football fans should be innocent of any acts until proven guilty, rather than banned from their passion on the basis of "police intelligence" which has not been subject to the scrutiny of a trial process. The example of the bus driver is not fictional; it is an ongoing case the anonymous details of which I have given are public record. Nobody wants us to be known internationally as a nation of football hooligans, but if the price to be paid for not living in a state where McCarthyist practices are employed in relation to fans of the national game is that from time to time the police have to prosecute what they consider to be acts of disorder, rather than secretly holding them against individuals until long past the time when a fair trial could be had and then pulling them out to ban people from travel, that's a price worth paying.

    This liberal-minded coalition must repeal the law requiring courts to impose football banning orders, and restrict the use of police intelligence in courts.

  • #2
    liberal guardian reading flip flop skumbag

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Rieger View Post
      liberal guardian reading flip flop skumbag
      2 years in the past too

      Written by Rupert Myers (age 12)

      NB: What he describes does seem a heavy handed approach tbf

      Comment


      • #4
        i am not taking the pee here, maybe someone should contact the lawyers who defend al qatada etc, cos they are untouchable.
        i see it as a human rights issue, only the uk adopts these banning orders, at a time when football violence is at an all time low.
        police have to justify their vast cots and expenses so have to secure bans..many come from btp for misdemeanours on trains, ie no ticket,chants,noise....some games need high police levels, others don't.
        SAR is full of police this season, even v wigan!

        Comment


        • #5
          we are accountable therefore easy prey for the police and courts.
          "The kids missed everything from Queens Park Rangers to Conkers".

          London Pride has been handed down to us.
          London Pride is a flower that's free.
          London Pride means our own dear town to us,
          And our pride it for ever will be.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by loneranger View Post
            we are accountable therefore easy prey for the police and courts.

            sometimes we also have a rush of blood and get tugged with no support loan
            Chelmsford City the home of Radio

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            • #7
              I want to know why all the soap dodgers who keep turning up at marches, demos, and places being cleared and cause problems, are not given the equivalent banning order preventing them to attend marches, demos, and places being cleared for three years.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by paulmason View Post
                I want to know why all the soap dodgers who keep turning up at marches, demos, and places being cleared and cause problems, are not given the equivalent banning order preventing them to attend marches, demos, and places being cleared for three years.
                Here here
                You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by paulmason View Post
                  I want to know why all the soap dodgers who keep turning up at marches, demos, and places being cleared and cause problems, are not given the equivalent banning order preventing them to attend marches, demos, and places being cleared for three years.


                  Because most of them are the sons and daughters of the police and judges?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by paulmason View Post
                    I want to know why all the soap dodgers who keep turning up at marches, demos, and places being cleared and cause problems, are not given the equivalent banning order preventing them to attend marches, demos, and places being cleared for three years.
                    Nowhwere near enough "Nannies" in the police Paul.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by paulmason View Post
                      I want to know why all the soap dodgers who keep turning up at marches, demos, and places being cleared and cause problems, are not given the equivalent banning order preventing them to attend marches, demos, and places being cleared for three years.
                      I reckon there are various human rights laws at work there. Political and relegious laws maybe at a guess? Like that proud and prejudice program said that for example relegious extremist groups can change names to avoid bans. I imagine there are a lot more legal loopholes available there.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Basically the original post is ******.

                        As someone who does a lot of work with the police in many countries, I can catagorically say that it is so far off the mark it is ridiculous.

                        Some might want to jump on the band wagon (even if it is the Guardian) but come on guys it isn't so.....
                        A message to the other Premier League clubs when they visit Loftus Road.....

                        "NUESTRA GLORIA, VUESTRO INFIERNO"

                        (If you don't understand it, then learn Spanish. It is the language of world football.....)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          its

                          its
                          a very difficult call this,the problem being that the differance between the old loft days and the current days are that the police have got paid informants in all the hooligan firms so for him to make his three hundred pound a week he has to big up the problem and continually get people arrested
                          i some times look at terrace links not to do any posting but to get an idea of what is going on,and all the teams talk about there firm becomeing smaller all the time,in london only millwall and west ham can provide enough numbers to be still considerd very dangerous
                          when qpr had the famous riot in fulham in 99 the ppolice statistics said we had about 700 these figurs were made up of an elite of about 200 and a further 500 bear monsters who joined in the fighting
                          but the last fulham encounter which was at loftus road last week the fulham raised 80 fans but qpr could only must 20 geezers,how has qprs firm diminshed
                          you may well ask
                          its because of the paid informants and the cctv and dna and a lot of thugs have just retired because the chance of getting banged up is so much more prevelant
                          SO A VERY DIFFICULT CALL IF THIS CONTINUES IN THREE OR FOUR SEASONS TIME HOOLIGANISM WILL BE VIRTUALLY EXTINCT
                          obsviously one of my best mates got a massive banning order in the maningtree disaster and i do miss him ,he wont be able to return to he is 62 years of age...........................but..............rac ism was once massive but its now finished,and hooliganism is going to be extinguished.next we will see the end of homophobia,
                          Click here to view my blog.

                          More...

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                          • #14
                            The policing of football fans in this country has been scadoules for years and have gotton away with treating us like animals

                            I remember at Norwich a few years ago lost 3-0 , a few of us left earlly to go back to the pub where we were stopped by the police who advised beacuse they believed we were "risk" QPR fans they gave us a section 27 and advised if we don't leave we will be arrested if thats not against by human rights I don't know what is

                            What needs to happen is a famous fan being caught up in it and seeing what happens as at the moment nothing will change and will probably get worse
                            We Are The People.....

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by themodfather View Post
                              i am not taking the pee here, maybe someone should contact the lawyers who defend al qatada etc, cos they are untouchable.
                              i see it as a human rights issue, only the uk adopts these banning orders, at a time when football violence is at an all time low.
                              police have to justify their vast cots and expenses so have to secure bans..many come from btp for misdemeanours on trains, ie no ticket,chants,noise....some games need high police levels, others don't.
                              SAR is full of police this season, even v wigan!
                              Acting as devil's advocate here, but maybe the measures in place are why hooliganism is at an all time low.

                              Comment

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