how easy is it to ask others to spend all their money on rangers?

[PeterG]

When these guys came in and took over they said that promotion was just a stepping stone and the real target was european football and that they were in something of a hurry to get there. again last season the board said that they were not interested in simply surviving in the premiership

There for I expect that they will spend again to atry and acheive thier stated goals

Personally I would have been happy for the club to balance a tilt at survival with a reduction in the overall debt, not an easy thing to do but a prudent strategy for the long term health of the club

[bushcelt1]

I'm definitely one of the people who hates the "spend some bloody money" given the amount of money we lose each year but I have to agree with that. The current owners (mainly umpa lumpa) have talked a lot of crap and raised expectation unnecessarily. However, we signed and spent a lot of money in the first few months. If we hadn't we'd have got relegated.

james....the bottom line is they raised the expectations not us....i'd would have been happy with a low-profile no billy big 'un crowd taking over.....even if they make a cple of decent signings they will never be accepted as true people with the clubs interest at heart...the damage has been done imo. hate having this feeling about our great season ahead but hate those two cn uts so much.

[James1979]

What I don't understand is this £10m loan. This is a loan with Flavio who is also a shareholder? This loan has option to buy ground which is worth far more than 10m. Isn't that a conflict of interest? Why can't the club take a bank loan out to buy this loan off Flavio? Who makes the decisions for the club?

[rangerforevereastcote]

What I don't understand is this £10m loan. This is a loan with Flavio who is also a shareholder? This loan has option to buy ground which is worth far more than 10m. Isn't that a conflict of interest? Why can't the club take a bank loan out to buy this loan off Flavio? Who makes the decisions for the club?

quite simple buisness strategy used the world over, the clubs pay a higher debt to the owener then it would the bank the clu loses money the other company make money combine the p&l and pay no tax, every big business has these in place, its just to try and prevent paying any tax or reduce as much as possible.

bush celt i completely agree they have raised expectation and i think thats what has caused all the problem , if they had jst stuck to were going to try and get to prem and were going to try and survive then i think the tone of this board would be very different, theyve promised champion league and the rreality as we all know very different. i do wonder if they have been caught out by the sheer stupidity of football that a player like vine can not play for 2 years yet has cost them near enogh 2 mill not inc next season when you can whack that up again. this again comes back to your point that had they come in and sussed the game before they made the statements we would have respected them more

[bushcelt1]

not really sure on the ins and outs of this loan but you can be sure they have us over a barrel....as the major shareholders do they not own us....i.e who else can buy this loan??? our future is totally in their hands........as baldric said.."all part of a cunning plan"-give it a cple of seasons and we could be homeless(sharing or renting) and any loans they have in their other interests will be transfered to QPR HOLDINGS or other QPR related businesses....like the glasiers done to man-u.

[rangerforevereastcote]

im only comenting as im involved in business where a lot of this goes on , the owners only ever loan the money cos they never know if they need it back, even abramovich will have loans to chelsea made from one of his numerous companies, if he ever got the hump with chelsea he could pull the lug and they would be lucky if they ended up in the ryman league (that would be a shame lol) its just the way business;s do things all legal but aimed at aoiding paying hmrc any dosh

[James1979]

quite simple buisness strategy used the world over, the clubs pay a higher debt to the owener then it would the bank the clu loses money the other company make money combine the p&l and pay no tax, every big business has these in place, its just to try and prevent paying any tax or reduce as much as possible.
bush celt i completely agree they have raised expectation and i think thats what has caused all the problem , if they had jst stuck to were going to try and get to prem and were going to try and survive then i think the tone of this board would be very different, theyve promised champion league and the rreality as we all know very different. i do wonder if they have been caught out by the sheer stupidity of football that a player like vine can not play for 2 years yet has cost them near enogh 2 mill not inc next season when you can whack that up again. this again comes back to your point that had they come in and sussed the game before they made the statements we would have respected them more

But that would only make sense if Flavio's company consolidated it's P&L with qpr. Does it? Ultimately Flavio and only flavio has a loan with qpr and is able to take the ground for 10m in repayment when it's worth 20+. This isn't done for tax reasons. It's a chain round the neck of the club so that he has ultimate say on any sale irrespective of his sharholding

[bushcelt1]

quite simple buisness strategy used the world over, the clubs pay a higher debt to the owener then it would the bank the clu loses money the other company make money combine the p&l and pay no tax, every big business has these in place, its just to try and prevent paying any tax or reduce as much as possible.

bush celt i completely agree they have raised expectation and i think thats what has caused all the problem , if they had jst stuck to were going to try and get to prem and were going to try and survive then i think the tone of this board would be very different, theyve promised champion league and the rreality as we all know very different. i do wonder if they have been caught out by the sheer stupidity of football that a player like vine can not play for 2 years yet has cost them near enogh 2 mill not inc next season when you can whack that up again. this again comes back to your point that had they come in and sussed the game before they made the statements we would have respected them more

nail on head fella.....all comes down to arrogance-or believing that we'd go with them no matter what....they say that football fans are fickle and to a certain degree we all are but they have underestimated our love/knowledge of the game-like the saying goes....you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all the time.....sorry about the cliches

[James1979]

im only comenting as im involved in business where a lot of this goes on , the owners only ever loan the money cos they never know if they need it back, even abramovich will have loans to chelsea made from one of his numerous companies, if he ever got the hump with chelsea he could pull the lug and they would be lucky if they ended up in the ryman league (that would be a shame lol) its just the way business;s do things all legal but aimed at aoiding paying hmrc any dosh

we're a loss making business anyway. Not sure how increasing our interest payments would benefit taxwise? Unless you're saying we're consolidated in a company which is profitable?

[rangerforevereastcote]

we're a loss making business anyway. Not sure how increasing our interest payments would benefit taxwise? Unless you're saying we're consolidated in a company which is profitable?

ill give you an example from the world i work in, we have seven diff firms within the group one may be a poperty firm we have to use to rent property from they charge us more then another one, we use the co money function to borrow at rates above the bank couple of bsiness;s make no cash some make loads , they combine all th emoney together (remember owners they pay themselves from these companies in form of dividends) , the trick is to show not to show a lot of combined profits , the reasons companies do this is because the govt make tax rules so complicated big firms emply top people to figure them out, just take flavio he has a nightclub business a clothing business , he prob makes money certain timess of year with that and prob loses money on his clothing business , he s got qpr which loses so net , he owns property companies which yield a rent and hes probably drawing a divident from each , the idea is that he offsets his losses vs profits , not just in one year but over a few years (the rule sar emore complicated then i can explain here) s what they are doing is pretty common place business world over

[rangerforevereastcote]

can i just add its been really nice to have a debate without people having go at each other, we get far more sensible threads when like this hope people see it!! dont get me banter is god but sometimes need to be able to talk about things without blowing up at eachother every 2 posts

[James1979]

ill give you an example from the world i work in, we have seven diff firms within the group one may be a poperty firm we have to use to rent property from they charge us more then another one, we use the co money function to borrow at rates above the bank couple of bsiness;s make no cash some make loads , they combine all th emoney together (remember owners they pay themselves from these companies in form of dividends) , the trick is to show not to show a lot of combined profits , the reasons companies do this is because the govt make tax rules so complicated big firms emply top people to figure them out, just take flavio he has a nightclub business a clothing business , he prob makes money certain timess of year with that and prob loses money on his clothing business , he s got qpr which loses so net , he owns property companies which yield a rent and hes probably drawing a divident from each , the idea is that he offsets his losses vs profits , not just in one year but over a few years (the rule sar emore complicated then i can explain here) s what they are doing is pretty common place business world over

Ah, I think we're coming from different side. I meant from qpr point of view. I understand the gain to Flavio. In my view though it's not the tax which he gains from. Qpr owes him 10m. This 10m has a hold on the ground. In my view I think this loan may also have certain conditions ie. he needs to approve a sale or even a change of control. What I don't understand is who is looking for the best for qpr? i don't mean footballwise but as a business? Eg. is this the loan best for qpr? can we get better t&c, interest rate elsewhere?
Just not sure who makes these decisions.

[rangerforevereastcote]

of course we can get better rates somewhere else probably paying 10% interest rate when can secure 5ish at a bank, remember there is no qpr point of view its always been at the owners discretion, he owns us lock stock and barrel, he got the "right" wehen he took over, if he chose to he could sell the club to westfield as a parking lot and theres nothing we can do, he could put us into administration f he wanted to, unfortnately the club is merely a pawn, there should be somebody on the board whos interest is to protect the club but why would an owner do that? it would prove to them to be more of a hassle, but again what they are doing is no different to 99% of business;s anymore, as soon as football became a business the ethics have gone from decent chairmen who had the club at heart (well some of the time) to the crrent mob of club owners who wouldnt look out of place in some mafia movie (and then you have that mob at blacburn)

[bushcelt1]

of course we can get better rates somewhere else probably paying 10% interest rate when can secure 5ish at a bank, remember there is no qpr point of view its always been at the owners discretion, he owns us lock stock and barrel, he got the "right" wehen he took over, if he chose to he could sell the club to westfield as a parking lot and theres nothing we can do, he could put us into administration f he wanted to, unfortnately the club is merely a pawn, there should be somebody on the board whos interest is to protect the club but why would an owner do that? it would prove to them to be more of a hassle, but again what they are doing is no different to 99% of business;s anymore, as soon as football became a business the ethics have gone from decent chairmen who had the club at heart (well some of the time) to the crrent mob of club owners who wouldnt look out of place in some mafia movie (and then you have that mob at blacburn)

at least they get cheap chickens......

[rangerforevereastcote]

i bet they overcharge for them aswel, also would you buy a chicken ff them boys lol?