This Claim of Doing things On The "Cheap"

[stainrod10]

Can I remind people we get 13,000 crowds

ask yourself why? A hotch-potch of unknown foreigners and loans that are unwanted by their clubs. A settled Manager (could/should have been JM) and proven championship players (purchased) was the way forward.

Many are getting fed up with the circus and are just letting the club get on with kiling itself.

[qprsouth]

i was of the understanding that the debt was wipped back when these people came in.all we have done it swapped a loan shark for a bank..Debt never removed and is growing by the week.prob lossing around 3-5 million a year more than pre current regime...if not more...Are we better off then????????????????????????Go on we are 10th in the championship..big deal we were getting 16500 with an average squad in league 1 and we were all happy when we went to watch a game no c-club no ciprianis no flash harry agent playing as a D.O.F. just plain old QPR the team many fans liked as there second club.Now we are the laughing stock of football....Well done the pro GP brigade your a credit to the club....

[PeterG]

Debt was ever sorted only managed. Calliendo still allegedly not paid either even though he agreed to waive a chunk of what he was owed

All of these problems have been outlined time and again even on this forum but have been consistantly pooh poohed

[vblockranger]

get rid of Paladini, go all out to bring in a good out of work proven manager (Coppell, Curbs etc ), lower ticket prices and buy 2 or 3 good players in January transfer window (and get rid of a few of the arrogant clowns we have playing for us now)..... then the fans would flood back and the feel good factor would be back for rest of season. Simples.

[Nodge70]

Can I remind people we get 13,000 crowds and the same people who s.lg of Flavio Briartore want him to dig deeper into his wallet.

Think the top 3 in this division have either parachute payments/ have big crowds to subsardise contracts/wages


or have both.

Don't really understand the point you're making here.

Fulham had crowds of sub 5,000 when Fayed started dipping into his pocket.

Middlesbrough had crowds of sub 7,000 when Gibson opened his wallet.

Wigan had crowds of 2,000 and a stadium that had remained unchanged from its Northern Premier League days when Whelan cut them a rug

Blackburn had crowds of less than 6,000 when Walker came in.

I really, really don't understand your point Pete.

Are you trying to defend a systemic lack of investment required to make the leap into the playoffs, an acknowledgement that the owners aren't as serious as attaining top flight status as the guys I've noted above or that we are just a rich mans toy with the club being used purely as a vehicle to massage ego's, or that the money just isn't there and the owners want out?

The club is a complete basket case and there's only the two guys responsible for it. The millions shelled out on previous management teams, the unnecessary embellishment of the corporate areas that don't sell, the interest free personal loans, the out of court settlements being paid to players for broken contracts. This is all due to utter incompetence and a lack of understanding. It is ridiculous.

[Captain Clunge]

Can I remind people we get 13,000 crowds and the same people who s.lg of Flavio Briartore want him to dig deeper into his wallet.

Think the top 3 in this division have either parachute payments/ have big crowds to subsardise contracts/wages


or have both.

Pete, dont you ever stop and think before you blindly tow the party line? Do you even have your own opinion?

This is getting embarrassing for you. Really it is. You and the gravy train freeloaders are now in a frighteningly small minority, and you risk being personally marginalised.

Grow a pair, think for yourself, and start doing some honest appraising of what's really happening at this club.

We've spent millions, literally, on tarting up HQ. We've spent millions, literally, on paying off managers/staff. And we've spent millions, yes literally, on useless players and crazy contracts. And yet we're still the only club in history to be taken over by "billionaires" and gone backwards.

[scarface]

Look at forest invested in quality both on and off the pitch with the like's of mckenna,dexter,camp(deemed by paladini not good enough for us).earnshaw,gunter and shorey and throw in a proven championship manager their club going in the right direction on the other hand we get in another perfetic carthorse upfront,a left back on the cheap from the bottom club in the championship.

Yes watson should of been a good signing but he's been awful,for some reason we dont play faurlin and then we continue to play routledge upfront.

Our season ticket prices have double dont you think we deserve a bit more for our money than a bunch of players who couldn't give a to$$,there all sitting on nice big contracts and couldn't give a damm about the club.

[davman]

This is a point which is often overlooked, it was widely reported at the time the club was sold to the board on the basis that we get 20000 gates.

If that REALLY is true, then what does it say about Flabio's ability as a Business Man????
I'd be interesting in selling him my 17 bed mansion in Basingstoke (the most beautiful place on the planet) with 6 acres if land for around £6m if he's interested...

[Fez]

They have spent money theres no doubting that, and thats why its a stupid situation to be in, they will never make money until we are in the Prem so they are going to have to take a hit financially initially to get us to the prem and then they could look at ways of making money. Otherwise this club is just a bottomless pit!

[Bernie's Barnet]

Don't really understand the point you're making here.

Fulham had crowds of sub 5,000 when Fayed started dipping into his pocket.

Middlesbrough had crowds of sub 7,000 when Gibson opened his wallet.

Wigan had crowds of 2,000 and a stadium that had remained unchanged from its Northern Premier League days when Whelan cut them a rug

Blackburn had crowds of less than 6,000 when Walker came in.

I really, really don't understand your point Pete.

Are you trying to defend a systemic lack of investment required to make the leap into the playoffs, an acknowledgement that the owners aren't as serious as attaining top flight status as the guys I've noted above or that we are just a rich mans toy with the club being used purely as a vehicle to massage ego's, or that the money just isn't there and the owners want out?

The club is a complete basket case and there's only the two guys responsible for it. The millions shelled out on previous management teams, the unnecessary embellishment of the corporate areas that don't sell, the interest free personal loans, the out of court settlements being paid to players for broken contracts. This is all due to utter incompetence and a lack of understanding. It is ridiculous.

This is of course the whole crux of the matter, and will, as a post, of course be completely ignored by pete once he logs back on and sees he has got the traffic he was looking for when he posted.

Prices were increased on the promise of an "improved product". Stick as many big TVs on the top of the stadium that you want, that ISN'T improving the product. An improved product in our case can mean only one of two things, complete refurbishment and modernisation of the stadium, or Prem football. We are certainly being asked to pay a price for this, but neither are remotely close, the latter due to the continual circus caused by dreadful management.

Briatore clearly does NOT have the money needed to do everything required to upgrade the club to Prem status, that means team and infrastructure. He came here with a personal wealth of about £75-80m, and the current global financial problems could reasonably be assumed to have halved that. He has put significant money into the club (i'd say getting on for £20-25m), but much of that has been spunked away on stuff that hasn't improved the club in any way, all summarised above by Nodge.

When we talk about expectations, let's remember that Briatore was the one spouting about Champions League in 4 years when he walked through the door, there was no talk of that being conditional on how many attended on average.

I'm afraid, as any good business man will tell you, the buck stops at the desk of the top man. He puts in the money, he makes the decisions, so if it all goes wrong, he should be bearing the pain. No income from F1 is going to start making his life extremely difficult, and if he's looking for all his money back to go, he isn't living in a very realistic world. Should they wish, the Mittals could probably make a reasonable offer to buy his shares on the basis of about 25-30p in the pound for the money he has invested. It wouldn't currently be in his interests to settle on the percentage ownership he holds on the ground. There's allegedly been plenty of interest from outside invetsors also, if he wants to go because he is cash strapped, let him do a deal.

His attempts to run the club, and the fallout from F1, have left him looking a very unattractive proposition for any other prospective employer. It's actually quite possible that he needs us far more than we need him at the moment. But I'm afraid I can't see how he has any more money left to take us forward. And he has only himself to blame for wasting so much money so badly.

[Goddard]

Don't really understand the point you're making here.

Fulham had crowds of sub 5,000 when Fayed started dipping into his pocket.

Middlesbrough had crowds of sub 7,000 when Gibson opened his wallet.

Wigan had crowds of 2,000 and a stadium that had remained unchanged from its Northern Premier League days when Whelan cut them a rug

Blackburn had crowds of less than 6,000 when Walker came in.

I really, really don't understand your point Pete.

Are you trying to defend a systemic lack of investment required to make the leap into the playoffs, an acknowledgement that the owners aren't as serious as attaining top flight status as the guys I've noted above or that we are just a rich mans toy with the club being used purely as a vehicle to massage ego's, or that the money just isn't there and the owners want out?

The club is a complete basket case and there's only the two guys responsible for it. The millions shelled out on previous management teams, the unnecessary embellishment of the corporate areas that don't sell, the interest free personal loans, the out of court settlements being paid to players for broken contracts. This is all due to utter incompetence and a lack of understanding. It is ridiculous.

^^^^^^^^^^^

That.

[Stanley]

Pete, a few of serious questions for you if you dont mind:

1. Regardless of the fact that we're in the middle of a recession, do you honestly think the ticket pricing policy is a fair one?
   
2. Assuming you dont, do you think we'd be getting 13,000 crowds if they hadn't over-inflated the prices?
   
3. Would you agree we could be getting at least 16/17,000 and selling out the top games if they restructered it and improved their PR which in turn could return at least some of the feel-good-factor and possibly even increase their revenue?
   (The improved atmosphere may even have a beneficial effect on the team).

good post stan

Cheers HA9. A reply to it might be nice, not to mention some of the other excellent points in the thread...

[PinnerPaul]

My twopennyworth for what its worth.

Prices defo have more effect on gate than performances, when we were playing well gates did not shoot up but invariably DO increase over what you would expect when a ticket promotion is run.

Despite hysteria over 'non' investment I think fans and board don't realise how much £s you really need to get out of this Div. Look at last set of accounts, look at "Cost of playing staff" and you can clearly see what it takes and the next set will show that cost has increased even more. There's a little bit of double standards here from the fans as well - they scream 'invest' but scream more loudly when L'wood is said to be on £10K a week.

Now even if you dont agree that he is worth that you can bet that that is the going rate for an 'average' player at this level. That is why so many clubs have gone to the wall and don't forget that Cardiff, Watford & Palace are all in a far worse place £s wise than us or would be if certain people called in the debt.

The fact we are in debt means we are in the same boat as most professional clubs - it may not be right but I can't see how you can blame Flav & co for running the club in the same way as far as debt is concerned as all the others.

"Invest properly in players who will win us promotion" is just a joke, if anyone could do that, guranteed, I think they would be the most popular man in the world - you know its not that easy - we can all pivk out players NOW from successful teams but picking them out, buying them, agreeing a contract and getting them to perform is not just a matter of saying "lets sign x, y z" and watching it happen - you know its not that simple really!

Finally though I think that that some of the unrest WOULD go down if the club reduced the prices - fans could accept all the above, knowing that no one can buy or guarantee success but paying £30 a time or £600+ for a S/T is bound to make patience wear thin.

[Goddard]

My twopennyworth for what its worth.

Prices defo have more effect on gate than performances, when we were playing well gates did not shoot up but invariably DO increase over what you would expect when a ticket promotion is run.

Despite hysteria over 'non' investment I think fans and board don't realise how much £s you really need to get out of this Div. Look at last set of accounts, look at "Cost of playing staff" and you can clearly see what it takes and the next set will show that cost has increased even more. There's a little bit of double standards here from the fans as well - they scream 'invest' but scream more loudly when L'wood is said to be on £10K a week.

Now even if you dont agree that he is worth that you can bet that that is the going rate for an 'average' player at this level. That is why so many clubs have gone to the wall and don't forget that Cardiff, Watford & Palace are all in a far worse place £s wise than us or would be if certain people called in the debt.

The fact we are in debt means we are in the same boat as most professional clubs - it may not be right but I can't see how you can blame Flav & co for running the club in the same way as far as debt is concerned as all the others.

"Invest properly in players who will win us promotion" is just a joke, if anyone could do that, guranteed, I think they would be the most popular man in the world - you know its not that easy - we can all pivk out players NOW from successful teams but picking them out, buying them, agreeing a contract and getting them to perform is not just a matter of saying "lets sign x, y z" and watching it happen - you know its not that simple really!

Finally though I think that that some of the unrest WOULD go down if the club reduced the prices - fans could accept all the above, knowing that no one can buy or guarantee success but paying £30 a time or £600+ for a S/T is bound to make patience wear thin.

All very well, but not a mention of the manager situation, and where we stand now after going through so many bosses, and gaining nothing... apart from a reputation as a no-go zone for most of them now.

I wouldn't care too much if we didn't spend another penny on players for a year... but employed a good manager, and let him manage.
Far more important, but very unlikely.

[haqpr1963]

Some very interesting posts on this thread......