Briartore.. Will Claim 1 Million Pound Damages

[paulmason]

Sorry, brighton has answered my points for me in my absence. Paul, you don't know the circumstances behind what happened, nor do I, the only ones who know for sure are Briatore, Symonds and Piquet. You'd like to believe that Briatore bullied Piquet into crashing because you don't want Briatore at our club, and you are clutching at this straw in the hopes it will force him out.

As I tried to point out to you earlier, but you seemed not to understand, the Renault statement made two points:

1. Briatore and Symonds have resigned.
2. Renault will not contest the charges put to it.

NOWHERE in that statement does it say that Briatore resigned having admitted that he was guilty of the charges brought to Renault by the FIA. You may suspect it. You may infer it. But if you tried to use it as proof that Briatore admitted ordering Piquet to crash, you WOULD be laughed out of a court of law. 100% FACT.

And as I said earlier, if Mosley has used it as a justification for banning Briatore, he is most likely going to have to pay handsomely for his error.

Bernie - I agree with your points but what you and no one else can explain is why:
1. Briatore and Symonds resigned.
2. Renault did not contest the charges put to them

This is the difference of opinions, nothing else.

[Bernie's Barnet]

Bernie - I agree with your points but what you and no one else can explain is why:
1. Briatore and Symonds resigned.
2. Renault did not contest the charges put to them

This is the difference of opinions, nothing else.

But why do Briatore and Symonds have to explain why they resigned? For all you know, it could be because Briatore is fed up travelling round the world when he's got a young wife with a baby on the way. Perhaps REnault already know they won't be competing in F1 next season. Who knows.

[m_cooper]

well! that would have been a vary scary coincidence

[Bernie's Barnet]

Apologies if this upsets anyone, but I came across this item on Newsnow from Report's site. Suggests things were not all quite as black and white as the paulmasons of the world might have us believe.


Reuters - Secret talks led to my Formula One ban: Briatore
13 November 2009

LONDON: Former Renault team boss Flavio Briatore accused Formula One's governing body on Friday of secret negotiations before a "sham hearing" at which he was banned for life from the sport.

The Italian was barred in September for his role in a plot to rig last year's Singapore Grand Prix by having Brazilian driver Nelson Piquet crash deliberately so that team mate Fernando Alonso could win the race.

Britain's Guardian newspaper reported on Thursday that Briatore would be seeking at least 1 million euros ($1.49 million) in damages at an appeal hearing in Paris on Nov. 24, as well as demanding the punishment be overturned.

The governing International Automobile Federation (FIA) condemned the "selective leaking" of extracts from Briatore's case to the court but the Italian dismissed their objections.

[b]In a statement issued on his behalf on Friday, he said his action was a public one, there was nothing confidential in the documents and he had nothing to hide.

He also rejected the FIA's position that the life ban was agreed by an "overwhelming" majority of World Motor Sport Council members attending the hearing.

Former champions Renault were also given a suspended permanent ban at that hearing.

"The FIA neglects to mention that, according to declarations by one of its own vice-presidents to the media, the world council's decision was rather the outcome of secret negotiations on the eve of the sham hearing," Briatore's statement said.

It gave no further details but FIA vice president Mohamed Ben Sulayem was quoted in Abu Dhabi's National newspaper after the September hearing as saying: "We are not here to hang teams, we did our negotiations before and everybody is happy with the result."

The FIA was not immediately available for comment.


Also:


A perspective re leaking

Planet F1.com

F1 Matters Arising: Andrew Davies takes a look at matters arising from a week of F1 news stories.

"....
Leaks- R-Us

Very shortly we will get the preliminary ruling on Flavio Briatore's attempt to overturn his life ban from the sport. And it was very funny to see the FIA complaining this week about alleged leaks from the Briatore side ahead of the court hearing.

During the autumn, in the run-up to the Nelson Piquet Crashgate hearing, there was so much leaking of the case against Briatore that it was like someone had put the whole prosecution case on the internet somewhere.

Jean Todt clearly hasn't used his new broom yet - because it still looks like there is one rule for the FIA and one rule for others.


The Pattern of Prosecution

There actually seems to be a parallel between Spygate (Ferrari vs McLaren over the leaked technical dossier) and Crashgate (Piquet vs Briatore et al over who told him to crash).

In the first, Max Mosley had two guilty parties. McLaren had been given and were using Ferrari technical secrets, while Renault had stolen and were using McLaren technical secrets. Renault, though getting less juicy stuff than Mclaren, had actually stolen the information, while Ferrari's was given to McLaren by a disgruntled employee.

The sum total of it all was that McLaren ended up with a $100m fine for not admitting it earlier, while Renault were credited for holding their hands up and confessing and not fined at all. The fact that Ron Dennis had gone to Max Mosley himself to inform him after Alonso tried to blackmail the team at the 2007 Hungarian GP seemed to be overlooked.

Crashgate seems to be the same. You have one person who's deeply involved but getting off with no sanction - Nelson Piquet - and one person who's singled out for punishment getting an extreme sanction - Briatore. McLaren chose not to contest this disproportion and move on with life, but Briatore has got nothing to lose.


Alonso - The Honeymoon Period

Fernando Alonso will be attending his first official Ferrari function when he attends the Ferrari World Finals. It's the honeymoon period between Alonso and Felipe Massa right now. The gloves are still on. But using the power of the F1 Crystal Nurburgring Schloss Snow Scene Ball, I see trouble ahead. Ferrari acted quickly to get Felipe Massa to tone down his comments over Alonso knowing about Nelson Piquet's Crashgate move.

But it was such a pivotal moment in F1 history that we will keep on coming back to it. The major events in F1 history never go away. Villeneuve vs Pironi at Imola, Mansell vs Piquet at Silverstone, Senna vs Prost at Suzuka (x2), Senna dying at Imola, Hill vs Schumacher at Adelaide, Schumacher vs Villeneuve (J) at Jerez, Hamilton at Interlagos (x2), Piquet at Singapore.
Alonso likes a team to favour him, but he's joining the Scuderia where Massa is the favourite son and a returning hero after his Hungarian GP injuries. Ferrari should be back at the front next year and lovely man though Stefano Domenicali is, he's going to find it tough to manage two explosive talents when one could hold a burning grudge.

(And it may be a legitimate one). One thing that Alonso said to a TV interviewer last season made me think. When asked if he knew about Nelson's deliberate crash instead of simply replying, "No, I didn't know he was going to crash", he referred back to the World Council's decision. His answer was, "the world council have said that I didn't know about it." What would be so difficult about giving the first answer...?

[qblockpete]

Actually think Flavio will get this decision overturned to a partial ban in the short-term. In my opinion, he has been used as a scapegoat.

[paulmason]

Apologies if this upsets anyone, but I came across this item on Newsnow from Report's site. Suggests things were not all quite as black and white as the paulmasons of the world might have us believe.


Reuters - Secret talks led to my Formula One ban: Briatore
13 November 2009

LONDON: Former Renault team boss Flavio Briatore accused Formula One's governing body on Friday of secret negotiations before a "sham hearing" at which he was banned for life from the sport.

The Italian was barred in September for his role in a plot to rig last year's Singapore Grand Prix by having Brazilian driver Nelson Piquet crash deliberately so that team mate Fernando Alonso could win the race.

Britain's Guardian newspaper reported on Thursday that Briatore would be seeking at least 1 million euros ($1.49 million) in damages at an appeal hearing in Paris on Nov. 24, as well as demanding the punishment be overturned.

The governing International Automobile Federation (FIA) condemned the "selective leaking" of extracts from Briatore's case to the court but the Italian dismissed their objections.

[b]In a statement issued on his behalf on Friday, he said his action was a public one, there was nothing confidential in the documents and he had nothing to hide.

He also rejected the FIA's position that the life ban was agreed by an "overwhelming" majority of World Motor Sport Council members attending the hearing.

Former champions Renault were also given a suspended permanent ban at that hearing.

"The FIA neglects to mention that, according to declarations by one of its own vice-presidents to the media, the world council's decision was rather the outcome of secret negotiations on the eve of the sham hearing," Briatore's statement said.

It gave no further details but FIA vice president Mohamed Ben Sulayem was quoted in Abu Dhabi's National newspaper after the September hearing as saying: "We are not here to hang teams, we did our negotiations before and everybody is happy with the result."

The FIA was not immediately available for comment.


Also:


A perspective re leaking

Planet F1.com

F1 Matters Arising: Andrew Davies takes a look at matters arising from a week of F1 news stories.

"....
Leaks- R-Us

Very shortly we will get the preliminary ruling on Flavio Briatore's attempt to overturn his life ban from the sport. And it was very funny to see the FIA complaining this week about alleged leaks from the Briatore side ahead of the court hearing.

During the autumn, in the run-up to the Nelson Piquet Crashgate hearing, there was so much leaking of the case against Briatore that it was like someone had put the whole prosecution case on the internet somewhere.

Jean Todt clearly hasn't used his new broom yet - because it still looks like there is one rule for the FIA and one rule for others.


The Pattern of Prosecution

There actually seems to be a parallel between Spygate (Ferrari vs McLaren over the leaked technical dossier) and Crashgate (Piquet vs Briatore et al over who told him to crash).

In the first, Max Mosley had two guilty parties. McLaren had been given and were using Ferrari technical secrets, while Renault had stolen and were using McLaren technical secrets. Renault, though getting less juicy stuff than Mclaren, had actually stolen the information, while Ferrari's was given to McLaren by a disgruntled employee.

The sum total of it all was that McLaren ended up with a $100m fine for not admitting it earlier, while Renault were credited for holding their hands up and confessing and not fined at all. The fact that Ron Dennis had gone to Max Mosley himself to inform him after Alonso tried to blackmail the team at the 2007 Hungarian GP seemed to be overlooked.

Crashgate seems to be the same. You have one person who's deeply involved but getting off with no sanction - Nelson Piquet - and one person who's singled out for punishment getting an extreme sanction - Briatore. McLaren chose not to contest this disproportion and move on with life, but Briatore has got nothing to lose.


Alonso - The Honeymoon Period

Fernando Alonso will be attending his first official Ferrari function when he attends the Ferrari World Finals. It's the honeymoon period between Alonso and Felipe Massa right now. The gloves are still on. But using the power of the F1 Crystal Nurburgring Schloss Snow Scene Ball, I see trouble ahead. Ferrari acted quickly to get Felipe Massa to tone down his comments over Alonso knowing about Nelson Piquet's Crashgate move.

But it was such a pivotal moment in F1 history that we will keep on coming back to it. The major events in F1 history never go away. Villeneuve vs Pironi at Imola, Mansell vs Piquet at Silverstone, Senna vs Prost at Suzuka (x2), Senna dying at Imola, Hill vs Schumacher at Adelaide, Schumacher vs Villeneuve (J) at Jerez, Hamilton at Interlagos (x2), Piquet at Singapore.
Alonso likes a team to favour him, but he's joining the Scuderia where Massa is the favourite son and a returning hero after his Hungarian GP injuries. Ferrari should be back at the front next year and lovely man though Stefano Domenicali is, he's going to find it tough to manage two explosive talents when one could hold a burning grudge.

(And it may be a legitimate one). One thing that Alonso said to a TV interviewer last season made me think. When asked if he knew about Nelson's deliberate crash instead of simply replying, "No, I didn't know he was going to crash", he referred back to the World Council's decision. His answer was, "the world council have said that I didn't know about it." What would be so difficult about giving the first answer...?

Bernie - I have said Briatore is fighting the ban, not the fact he did it or not and there is nothing in the above to say it not what he is doing. lets say he does manage to get the lifetime ban changed to a 1 week, 1 month, or a 1 year ban, how will that affect the FL fit and proper rules ?

[Bernie's Barnet]

Bernie - I have said Briatore is fighting the ban, not the fact he did it or not and there is nothing in the above to say it not what he is doing. lets say he does manage to get the lifetime ban changed to a 1 week, 1 month, or a 1 year ban, how will that affect the FL fit and proper rules ?

Actually you said

"Cant see why he is bothering as he has accepted he done, what they said he done".

And if he is suing for damages, that doesn't mean he will accept that their judgment was a little bit right and was worth a 1 week or 1 month or 1 year ban. If he sues successfully for damages, it means the FIA ruling was entirely wrong, and they will have to lift their ban completely, and no doubt also release a statement acknowledging that their initial ruling was wrong.

[paulmason]

Actually you said

"Cant see why he is bothering as he has accepted he done, what they said he done".

And if he is suing for damages, that doesn't mean he will accept that their judgment was a little bit right and was worth a 1 week or 1 month or 1 year ban. If he sues successfully for damages, it means the FIA ruling was entirely wrong, and they will have to lift their ban completely, and no doubt also release a statement acknowledging that their initial ruling was wrong.

I actually said "Cant see why he is bothering as he has accepted he done, what they said he done, so the best thing that can happen is his lifetime ban reduced to 1 or 2 years ban, but the fact is he would still have been banned"

I still cant understand why someone would quit a really good job when they had done nothing wrong, but as you said its perfectly normal thing to do and means nothing.

[wicksta]

I actually said "Cant see why he is bothering as he has accepted he done, what they said he done, so the best thing that can happen is his lifetime ban reduced to 1 or 2 years ban, but the fact is he would still have been banned"

I still cant understand why someone would quit a really good job when they had done nothing wrong, but as you said its perfectly normal thing to do and means nothing.

Simple. Because if he had stayed on Renault would have been kicked out of the championship and he (along with hundreds of people) wouldn't have a job anyway.

[paulmason]

Simple. Because if he had stayed on Renault would have been kicked out of the championship and he (along with hundreds of people) wouldn't have a job anyway.

I agree that may have happened if he was guilty, but why would that happen if he done nothing wrong ?

[wicksta]

I agree that may have happened if he was guilty, but why would that happen if he done nothing wrong ?

That's where the contention lies. It was obvious that Max wanted shot of Flavio and he even offered two people immunity from punishment if they said that Flavio did it. It speaks volumes that one of those people didn't take that opportunity, surely if Flavio was guilty he would have just shopped him in.

[paulmason]

Wicksta - If Renault were throwing Briatore to the lions, like they did, there is no way in gods earth he would sacrifice himself by resigning, to save hundreds of other people, when he had done nothing wrong. He would have stuck around until they sacked him, fought his corner and came up the champion after proving his innocence.

This is what I think happened and is speculation on my side. He done a deal with Renault where as he quit, hopefully to limit his punishment, as well as to save Renault and staff from an uncertain future. Everything was OK until he was hit with an outrageous punishment, no one saw coming which was so severe, it threatens his business going forward as billionaire is based largely around the F1 playground and the people he met on a daily basis.

If he is not guilty of the the things they said he done, I hope he clears his name and takes the FIA to the cleaners, as they potentially have done to him.