When did football become not about winning?

[Shepherds Mush]

Sort of agree but how else is a 2nd choice goalkeeper (for example) going to get any game time if it isn't in games where there is no adverse consequence ?

[Alanwycombe]

Absolutely this.

To add further, those saying that experimenting is for the training ground, how can you see the quality on a competitive level without experimenting at a competitive level.

Football is about winning the title, getting promoted, not getting relegated at this level. Why? Because the Championship has no variation in prize money for position. Finishing anywhere between 7 and 24 doesn't matter, so once you know you can't finish anywhere but these positions, you may as well test things out competitively.

Individual matches stop being important and the whole season starts being more important, in fact, the whole season and the next season become more important than an individual match.

So for me, football is about winning, it's just about the bigger picture win instead of the win that doesn't accomplish anything.

Can see your points Nasser but we don't get charged less for an inferior product - it's a business after all. A world of difference between clubs like us and clubs that have at least two first teams available. I'd be quite happy to pay full price to watch Jesus instead of Aguero but at our level bringing a player in, and hopefully giving him a run, should be a potential progression not a massive change for the team. Experimenting with three or four players plus a different system is what should be tried in training not when you are supposed to be playing to win for the club, the punters and the credibility of the competition/league. Giving the second string goalie a game isn't in the same category really. Shouldn't upset the team at all.

[Shepherds Mush]

Changed a load on Tuesday night and won, changed a load on Saturday and lost - swings and roundabouts for me.

[Tarbie]

Absolutely this.

To add further, those saying that experimenting is for the training ground, how can you see the quality on a competitive level without experimenting at a competitive level.

Football is about winning the title, getting promoted, not getting relegated at this level. Why? Because the Championship has no variation in prize money for position. Finishing anywhere between 7 and 24 doesn't matter, so once you know you can't finish anywhere but these positions, you may as well test things out competitively.

Individual matches stop being important and the whole season starts being more important, in fact, the whole season and the next season become more important than an individual match.

So for me, football is about winning, it's just about the bigger picture win instead of the win that doesn't accomplish anything.

But the thing you've failed to acknowledge there is that Ollie spent the first 6 months of the season 'experimenting' with tactics that didn't work for us. Had he have sussed the formation didn't suit our squad a bit sooner, maybe we'd still have something to play for and we wouldn't be having this argument. Unfortunately he didn't and our last 6 or 7 games are dead rubbers. But surely if he wants the fans off his back he should be at least putting out sides to win games for the remainder of the season. I'd argue that a couple of his line ups recently were never going to win, particularly the 4-0 at Hull. We all knew what was gonna happen there the minute we saw the line up!

[nasser95]

But the thing you've failed to acknowledge there is that Ollie spent the first 6 months of the season 'experimenting' with tactics that didn't work for us. Had he have sussed the formation didn't suit our squad a bit sooner, maybe we'd still have something to play for and we wouldn't be having this argument. Unfortunately he didn't and our last 6 or 7 games are dead rubbers. But surely if he wants the fans off his back he should be at least putting out sides to win games for the remainder of the season. I'd argue that a couple of his line ups recently were never going to win, particularly the 4-0 at Hull. We all knew what was gonna happen there the minute we saw the line up!

He didn't experiment in the first six months though, he stuck to a style that he thought would work and it didn't. He switched to a different style and it did. Here's how I see it.

First 2/3rds of the season: Stuck to a 352, tried different players in that formation to see who worked.
Final 1/3rd of the season: Switched to a 4231, 433, 4411 formation, got us safe seeing the formation work, so tried out different players in the formation to see who would work in what is expected to now be our long term formation. The rotation allows us to see which players can play that formation and which players can't. Those that can't are now likely to be moved on in the summer.

Testing out Cousins for example and seeing him struggle in the formation probably has allowed us to make a clear decision to move him on if possible in the summer. Seeing Manning adapt to playing rather well on the wing in this formation probably gives us a better idea of the versatility he'd offer next season. Seeing Washington play this formation and completely fail has probably put the final nail in the coffin for him and seeing Smyth play so well on the wing has given us more options and less concerns should we decide to move Wszolek on for good money.

Experimenting in what I call Faux competitive matches like these ones are the perfect way to suss out what the upcoming Summer holds.

[dogsrrs]

Absolutely this.

To add further, those saying that experimenting is for the training ground, how can you see the quality on a competitive level without experimenting at a competitive level.

Football is about winning the title, getting promoted, not getting relegated at this level. Why? Because the Championship has no variation in prize money for position. Finishing anywhere between 7 and 24 doesn't matter, so once you know you can't finish anywhere but these positions, you may as well test things out competitively.

Individual matches stop being important and the whole season starts being more important, in fact, the whole season and the next season become more important than an individual match.

So for me, football is about winning, it's just about the bigger picture win instead of the win that doesn't accomplish anything.

I rarely see eye to eye with what you post but have to admit you've put in a couple of really sensible posts on this subject , not exciting the live for today but good common sense

[Shepherds Mush]

Seeing Manning adapt to playing rather well on the wing in this formation probably gives us a better idea of the versatility he'd offer next season. Seeing Washington play this formation and completely fail has probably put the final nail in the coffin for him and seeing Smyth play so well on the wing has given us more options and less concerns should we decide to move Wszolek on for good money.

Would prefer to see wingers like BOS or Wheeler on the wing next season than a CM or a striker !

[nasser95]

Would prefer to see wingers like BOS or Wheeler on the wing next season than a CM or a striker !

And I would too, but we've seen that fitness can be an issue, and more importantly, if we want to give Manning game time, on the assumption that we keep Mass, Freeman, Eze and Scowen, he'd need somewhere to play and he's proving that he can do that on the wing. Meanwhile, BOS is proving that he can play very well too, although I will give you the Wheeler one and it is odd that he isn't playing but I don't get to see him in training so I can't comment too much on him.4

With Smyth, at this level, given his size, playing him on the wing might be the best thing to do. He can use his pace well, he doesn't have to deal with lumbering bully's of centre backs and playing off someone like Smith in the middle just opens up space for him that he wouldn't have if he were to play up top.

[Timmy the Doc]

Nothing has killed football. Far from it.

Agree with this. Football this season has been most entertaining ever. 4-5 games will go into my all time top 10 (Football/Premier League in general. Not us).

[Shepherds Mush]

And I would too, but we've seen that fitness can be an issue, and more importantly, if we want to give Manning game time, on the assumption that we keep Mass, Freeman, Eze and Scowen, he'd need somewhere to play and he's proving that he can do that on the wing. Meanwhile, BOS is proving that he can play very well too, although I will give you the Wheeler one and it is odd that he isn't playing but I don't get to see him in training so I can't comment too much on him.4

With Smyth, at this level, given his size, playing him on the wing might be the best thing to do. He can use his pace well, he doesn't have to deal with lumbering bully's of centre backs and playing off someone like Smith in the middle just opens up space for him that he wouldn't have if he were to play up top.

Think Wheeler is injured for the season. Got high hopes for him next season in the current formation.

Smyth for me is a support striker that may drift out now and again to pull defenders out of position. That pace and trickery will give lumbering CB's nightmares.

[Macca]

Down to the football powers to punish clubs for putting out week sides in all comps, it is not only robbing the fan of seeing the strongest side available, also fans that have a bet on their side winning, just not good enough for the paying fan.

[nasser95]

Think Wheeler is injured for the season. Got high hopes for him next season in the current formation.

Smyth for me is a support striker that may drift out now and again to pull defenders out of position. That pace and trickery will give lumbering CB's nightmares.

Possibly, but again, this is based on the style we play. Right now, we have Eze playing behind the main striker. We certainly cannot play Smyth as the main striker there so the best thing to do is to play him wide and let him drift across, as he has been doing.

[davieqpr]

Holloway did stick with the ill fated 3-5-2 for the main part of the season but look at the team changes he made to try and prove it worked. So many changes every week. Only twice have we fielded the same team and that was when he was trying to prove Mackie/ Washington combo worked.
He needs to stick with a basic core of players next season with sensible rotation.

[Tarbie]

He didn't experiment in the first six months though, he stuck to a style that he thought would work and it didn't. He switched to a different style and it did. Here's how I see it.

First 2/3rds of the season: Stuck to a 352, tried different players in that formation to see who worked.
Final 1/3rd of the season: Switched to a 4231, 433, 4411 formation, got us safe seeing the formation work, so tried out different players in the formation to see who would work in what is expected to now be our long term formation. The rotation allows us to see which players can play that formation and which players can't. Those that can't are now likely to be moved on in the summer.

Testing out Cousins for example and seeing him struggle in the formation probably has allowed us to make a clear decision to move him on if possible in the summer. Seeing Manning adapt to playing rather well on the wing in this formation probably gives us a better idea of the versatility he'd offer next season. Seeing Washington play this formation and completely fail has probably put the final nail in the coffin for him and seeing Smyth play so well on the wing has given us more options and less concerns should we decide to move Wszolek on for good money.

Experimenting in what I call Faux competitive matches like these ones are the perfect way to suss out what the upcoming Summer holds.

Yeah, I was using the word 'experimenting' tongue in cheek there. I appreciate that he thought it would work, god knows how it took him 6 months to realise that it didn't.

The point remains that having wasted the first 6 months of the season, it's frustrating to see him revert to wasting the last handful of games too. We've only just started playing well, at least give the fans something to cheer about for a few games. If he f*cks things up against Brentford I'll be fuming!

[Shepherds Mush]

If he f*cks things up against Brentford I'll be fuming!

HAS to go for the strongest side available and play on the front foot. About time we took it to them.

We shouldn't accept anything less.