Mass makes the Championship top 20 despite being a league 1 standard player

[Tarbie]

This is just wrong. I'm telling you that they're good because I've seen them, the stats just happen to back me up. If the stats told me they weren't good players, I'd look at them closely and see what I'm missing, I'm not someone who's blind to the ability to re-evaluate if the date says I'm not right.

And how wrong can you even be on the second point, Carroll has played all 16 games that have happened since joining Swansea, in the starting 11 for 14 of them and subbed on for only 2. Fer has started 26 games and been subbed on for 6, he's only been unused for 4 games all season so you're coming up with stuff that's just wrong and the data proves so. But then you've been doing that this whole time.

Fair enough, so I'm wrong on Carroll being a regular starter. Still don't rate him, along with pretty much everyone on here I'd imagine after his spell with us.

[nasser95]

What I value is results Nas. Not just in football, in every area of my life.

You're busy telling me how great Fer and Carroll are, because of what you have read into the stats. What I see is 2 players that are struggling to get a regular game for one of the worst sides in the top flight.

This is just wrong. I'm telling you that they're good because I've seen them, the stats just happen to back me up. If the stats told me they weren't good players, I'd look at them closely and see what I'm missing, I'm not someone who's blind to the ability to re-evaluate if the date says I'm not right.

And how wrong can you even be on the second point, Carroll has played all 16 games that have happened since joining Swansea, in the starting 11 for 14 of them and subbed on for only 2. Fer has started 26 games and been subbed on for 6, he's only been unused for 4 games all season so you're coming up with stuff that's just wrong and the data proves so. But then you've been doing that this whole time.

[Tarbie]

A goal involvement for one of the worst football playing team every 182 minutes... yea, Matt Phillips definitely is not pulling up trees. The guy was by far West Brom's best player until his injury in February.

Leroy Fer had an incredible first half of the season and he's not been as good in the second half, but he's still a premier league player. Tom Carroll has been getting more time as the season went on and is highly rated and anyone who understands football will value his calmness and composure on the ball. I don't get how you don't value the player who keeps moving the ball as much as he does, when the best teams in the world value that more than anything and will continue to because of the influence of the metronome in midfield.

So no, these players aren't being found out, if Swansea do get relegated, don't expect Fer or Carroll to be there next season. Wonder why? It's because they are premier league players with premier league pedigree and premier league talent and clubs will pay money for them to be there. The stats back that and I will continue to back them because They're facts and I'm not god.

And you talk about high pass accuracy, you do realise stats aren't that basic right? Like, you know they have stats for accurate forward passes, they have positional maps of every pass in every game and where they went. They have positional maps of every touch of every player in every game in the last god knows how many years. Stats are not as simple as you think they are. That's why they're used. It just happens to be the case that you don't look deep enough to value them fairly.

What I value is results Nas. Not just in football, in every area of my life.

You're busy telling me how great Fer and Carroll are, because of what you have read into the stats. What I see is 2 players that are struggling to get a regular game for one of the worst sides in the top flight.

[hal9thou]

Nobody is complaining about the creativeness of the midfield

I am. And have been for the last three seasons. We have no ATM playmaker, no one who can find time / space - or as Ollie says, someone to play the piano. Ravel was a punt in that direction and it was never really gonna come could. Eze could play in the hole behind two which is an ATM role, think it would suit him, but Ollie's tactics and fear of youth beg to differ.

The result of this is Smith / Sylla are isolated, back to goal. It makes no sense whatsoever. Ollie's failure to utilise Sylla is shocking imo, and why buy Smith if you refuse to set up to service him?

[bradrangers]

What sounds fishy? That he makes the second most tackles in the league? Because that's a relevant action for a defensive midfielder. Sorry but if people don't want to see it, they won't, that's how the connection between the eyes and the brain work. You see things and filter out plenty that doesn't suit the image you create in your head in the first place. Mass' strengths based on whoscored are: Dribbling, Tackling, Defensive contribution (All very strong), aerial duels, Concentration (Both strong) while his weakness is finishing.

For a player playing in a deeper centre mid role, all those strengths are things I'd consider to be the key characteristics, with the exception of passing.

And why do people want us to get a new defensive mid? It's simple, they're forgetting that the one biggest issue isn't the centre mids, it's that the centre backs and full backs totally bypass them on a regular basis with their long balls, Lynch being the biggest example of this. If you don't give the ball to your centre mids, how are they going to create? If you lob it over them to get it to smith, how are your centre mids going to get balls through to your wingers or runners. Why do we play the wrong way with our tall striker? Everyone says Smith can only do the hold up thing, but I guarantee you that if we had wingers playing regularly who were willing to put a ball into the box, he'd score more (a la Wszolek). Right now the tactic is (And has been for so long) "Lob it up to the tall guy and see what happens". No wonder people think we need a new midfielder despite having Luongo, Freeman, Manning, Hall, Goss available in that role. It's because they barely get to see them be creative with the ball because they barely have it. When they do, look at what happens, Luongo and Freeman can both carry the ball forward very well and Manning is a solid passer, same as Goss. It's just that they never get the ball and so people think they aren't doing anything so end up blaming them.

I actually have a lot of time for you nasser but I have to disagree with you on this point. Nobody is complaining about the creativeness of the midfield, its how lightweight they are. We need someone to sit in front of and screen the back 4 and thats been quite obvious to me the past 2 seasons. I think Luongo, Manning and Freeman would do fantastic next season with someone to sit behind them and do the dirty work.

[nasser95]

Ah yes, Leroy Fer who has been relegated every full season he has played in the Prem and is down there battling again this season.....with Tom Carroll there with him as it goes. I actually liked Phillips myself, but again, he's not pulling up any trees in the top flight either, is he?

Could it be Nas that these players were signed off the back of having decent stats and are now being found out?

In my opinion, Tom Carroll is epitome of what's wrong with this stats culture in football these days. The stats will tell you he has an amazingly high pass percentage accuracy. Anyone who has seen him play will tell you that half of those passes were backwards and he gets a nosebleed every time he passes the halfway line. Talented player but woefully ineffective!

A goal involvement for one of the worst football playing team every 182 minutes... yea, Matt Phillips definitely is not pulling up trees. The guy was by far West Brom's best player until his injury in February.

Leroy Fer had an incredible first half of the season and he's not been as good in the second half, but he's still a premier league player. Tom Carroll has been getting more time as the season went on and is highly rated and anyone who understands football will value his calmness and composure on the ball. I don't get how you don't value the player who keeps moving the ball as much as he does, when the best teams in the world value that more than anything and will continue to because of the influence of the metronome in midfield.

So no, these players aren't being found out, if Swansea do get relegated, don't expect Fer or Carroll to be there next season. Wonder why? It's because they are premier league players with premier league pedigree and premier league talent and clubs will pay money for them to be there. The stats back that and I will continue to back them because They're facts and I'm not god.

And you talk about high pass accuracy, you do realise stats aren't that basic right? Like, you know they have stats for accurate forward passes, they have positional maps of every pass in every game and where they went. They have positional maps of every touch of every player in every game in the last god knows how many years. Stats are not as simple as you think they are. That's why they're used. It just happens to be the case that you don't look deep enough to value them fairly.

[Tarbie]

Yea he would gain points, about 0.01 points. He'd gain more points if he played a pass that led to a chance, or if he made a tackle that ended an attack, or if he dribbled past an opposition player in a forward position. You say your problem with stats is that they can be misinterpreted, what about what you're seeing? You can misinterpret something. Stats alone are only half the story, stats and footage (either live or otherwise) used together gives you 90% of the picture and you get the rest of it from knowing exactly what was supposed to happen in any given situation (either by being a player or the manager).

Mass has been used as a central midfielder with defensive duties for 19 games, a defensive midfielder exclusively for 14 games and an attacking midfielder for 1. Yes, he's run forward more in some games than others, but he never shirks his defensive duties over the course of a game. Over individual matches, the scores are based on the rating of the player for that match based on his position in that individual match. So as a pure CDM, he's got an average rating of 7.31 and as central midfielder with defensive duties he's got a 7.33 rating, barely a difference, but as an attacking midfielder, he's got a 6.64 rating which is pretty average.

Stats aren't the be all and end all but discounting them because a bunch of people here disagree with them is the real danger. People here devalued so many players who ended up doing better than us just as the numbers predicted. Matt Phillips, Tom Carroll, Leroy Fer. All players the stats backed, all players who fans didn't think enough of and look at them all now in the premier league and expect them to spend most of their career there.

Ah yes, Leroy Fer who has been relegated every full season he has played in the Prem and is down there battling again this season.....with Tom Carroll there with him as it goes. I actually liked Phillips myself, but again, he's not pulling up any trees in the top flight either, is he?

Could it be Nas that these players were signed off the back of having decent stats and are now being found out?

In my opinion, Tom Carroll is epitome of what's wrong with this stats culture in football these days. The stats will tell you he has an amazingly high pass percentage accuracy. Anyone who has seen him play will tell you that half of those passes were backwards and he gets a nosebleed every time he passes the halfway line. Talented player but woefully ineffective!

[nasser95]

This is basically my argument.

The problem with data and statistics is they can be misinterpreted, misrepresented, or even manipulated.

In this case we have an article that tells us that Luongo is one of the best defensive midfielders in the league. Then we have a general consensus of virtually everyone on this thread bar Nasser that Luongo is a.) not a natural defensive midfielder and b.) is good, but not one of the best in the league at this moment in time.

This suggestion that Mas is one of the best in the league in the role he is playing is driven by scores calculated on "relevant actions". This in itself is a massive assumption. Surely to know what a relevant action for Mas would be in a specific game, you would actually have to know what the manager has told him to do in that particular game. You'd also really need to take each action in it's own context, i.e. if Luongo decided to play an easy ball in the 89th minute when we are chasing the game, he'd gain points for pass completion but actually, what he should be doing is looking to create something to help us score.

Also, the system has decided that Mas is purely a defensive midfielder, which over the course of the season isn't 100% true. He has been used in a number of different roles, including a more offensive midfield role in a couple of games.

If the points system itself is based on assumptions and generalisms, then clearly we cannot trust it 100%.

Now I do think there is a place for statistics in the game. Clearly it is beneficial to see how much ground a player has covered, his pass completion %, tackles made etc. There is however, in my opinion a danger in relying completely on stats and making them the be all and end all.

Yea he would gain points, about 0.01 points. He'd gain more points if he played a pass that led to a chance, or if he made a tackle that ended an attack, or if he dribbled past an opposition player in a forward position. You say your problem with stats is that they can be misinterpreted, what about what you're seeing? You can misinterpret something. Stats alone are only half the story, stats and footage (either live or otherwise) used together gives you 90% of the picture and you get the rest of it from knowing exactly what was supposed to happen in any given situation (either by being a player or the manager).

Mass has been used as a central midfielder with defensive duties for 19 games, a defensive midfielder exclusively for 14 games and an attacking midfielder for 1. Yes, he's run forward more in some games than others, but he never shirks his defensive duties over the course of a game. Over individual matches, the scores are based on the rating of the player for that match based on his position in that individual match. So as a pure CDM, he's got an average rating of 7.31 and as central midfielder with defensive duties he's got a 7.33 rating, barely a difference, but as an attacking midfielder, he's got a 6.64 rating which is pretty average.

Stats aren't the be all and end all but discounting them because a bunch of people here disagree with them is the real danger. People here devalued so many players who ended up doing better than us just as the numbers predicted. Matt Phillips, Tom Carroll, Leroy Fer. All players the stats backed, all players who fans didn't think enough of and look at them all now in the premier league and expect them to spend most of their career there.

[Tarbie]

My view is not be all and end all. We all see the game in different ways Nas. I don't have to look at stats to decide if they have had a good game or not. Maybe that's the modern way of looking at the game.

I've looked at stats and player ratings after a game and certain players get given a good rating or the MOTM and I think what game have they been watching.

I'm a bit long in the tooth to be changing the way i watch the game.

This is basically my argument.

The problem with data and statistics is they can be misinterpreted, misrepresented, or even manipulated.

In this case we have an article that tells us that Luongo is one of the best defensive midfielders in the league. Then we have a general consensus of virtually everyone on this thread bar Nasser that Luongo is a.) not a natural defensive midfielder and b.) is good, but not one of the best in the league at this moment in time.

This suggestion that Mas is one of the best in the league in the role he is playing is driven by scores calculated on "relevant actions". This in itself is a massive assumption. Surely to know what a relevant action for Mas would be in a specific game, you would actually have to know what the manager has told him to do in that particular game. You'd also really need to take each action in it's own context, i.e. if Luongo decided to play an easy ball in the 89th minute when we are chasing the game, he'd gain points for pass completion but actually, what he should be doing is looking to create something to help us score.

Also, the system has decided that Mas is purely a defensive midfielder, which over the course of the season isn't 100% true. He has been used in a number of different roles, including a more offensive midfield role in a couple of games.

If the points system itself is based on assumptions and generalisms, then clearly we cannot trust it 100%.

Now I do think there is a place for statistics in the game. Clearly it is beneficial to see how much ground a player has covered, his pass completion %, tackles made etc. There is however, in my opinion a danger in relying completely on stats and making them the be all and end all.

[upperloft]

The only stats that matter to people are the ones they want to hear. If the stats told people that Luongo was not that good, they'd talk about them non stop, because that's what they want to believe. Stats go against what they believe and the stats must be wrong, because there's no way what we see is wrong, it's impossible for people to miss things in match.

If you don't mind me saying and I'm not saying this to you directly at all, but what bothers me is when people discount stats because they think their view is the be all and end all regardless of how they can back it up. Their only evidence is "I know what I saw" even though stats are more used to tell you what you missed...

My view is not be all and end all. We all see the game in different ways Nas. I don't have to look at stats to decide if they have had a good game or not. Maybe that's the modern way of looking at the game.

I've looked at stats and player ratings after a game and certain players get given a good rating or the MOTM and I think what game have they been watching.

I'm a bit long in the tooth to be changing the way i watch the game.

[Hove Ranger]

FWIW I rate him. Still room for improvement but a good option at this level

[bakes8]

The only stats that matter mate are the results at the end of games and the points on the board. All else is open to debate.

Fwiw I think Mass has improved in the last 6month. Still has a long way to go for me, and I could name (at least) a dozen midfielders in this division Id rather see play for us instead. But he's certainly improving.

[nasser95]

You know what bothers me is that we are told Luongo is the best midfielder in the league, Onouha is a quality CB, worth every penny we pay him and all that and we have the best keeper in the league(fact none of the stat ######) if we have them 3 why do we concede so many?? The only stat that matters is how many points after 90mins. No offence Nas.

The only stats that matter to people are the ones they want to hear. If the stats told people that Luongo was not that good, they'd talk about them non stop, because that's what they want to believe. Stats go against what they believe and the stats must be wrong, because there's no way what we see is wrong, it's impossible for people to miss things in match.

If you don't mind me saying and I'm not saying this to you directly at all, but what bothers me is when people discount stats because they think their view is the be all and end all regardless of how they can back it up. Their only evidence is "I know what I saw" even though stats are more used to tell you what you missed...

[upperloft]

You know what bothers me is that we are told Luongo is the best midfielder in the league, Onouha is a quality CB, worth every penny we pay him and all that and we have the best keeper in the league(fact none of the stat ######) if we have them 3 why do we concede so many?? The only stat that matters is how many points after 90mins. No offence Nas.

[nasser95]

Agree with that 100% too. So what does that tell us about the stats then?

So Luongo is an offensive/box to box midfielder being played out of position in a defensive midfield role. Despite being played out of position, he has somehow managed to amass a level of points for "relevant actions" for defensive midfielder, across the course of the season for us to consider him one of the best defensive midfielders in the league.

All sounds a bit fishy to me!

What sounds fishy? That he makes the second most tackles in the league? Because that's a relevant action for a defensive midfielder. Sorry but if people don't want to see it, they won't, that's how the connection between the eyes and the brain work. You see things and filter out plenty that doesn't suit the image you create in your head in the first place. Mass' strengths based on whoscored are: Dribbling, Tackling, Defensive contribution (All very strong), aerial duels, Concentration (Both strong) while his weakness is finishing.

For a player playing in a deeper centre mid role, all those strengths are things I'd consider to be the key characteristics, with the exception of passing.

And why do people want us to get a new defensive mid? It's simple, they're forgetting that the one biggest issue isn't the centre mids, it's that the centre backs and full backs totally bypass them on a regular basis with their long balls, Lynch being the biggest example of this. If you don't give the ball to your centre mids, how are they going to create? If you lob it over them to get it to smith, how are your centre mids going to get balls through to your wingers or runners. Why do we play the wrong way with our tall striker? Everyone says Smith can only do the hold up thing, but I guarantee you that if we had wingers playing regularly who were willing to put a ball into the box, he'd score more (a la Wszolek). Right now the tactic is (And has been for so long) "Lob it up to the tall guy and see what happens". No wonder people think we need a new midfielder despite having Luongo, Freeman, Manning, Hall, Goss available in that role. It's because they barely get to see them be creative with the ball because they barely have it. When they do, look at what happens, Luongo and Freeman can both carry the ball forward very well and Manning is a solid passer, same as Goss. It's just that they never get the ball and so people think they aren't doing anything so end up blaming them.