Mass makes the Championship top 20 despite being a league 1 standard player

[bradrangers]

What sounds fishy? That he makes the second most tackles in the league? Because that's a relevant action for a defensive midfielder. Sorry but if people don't want to see it, they won't, that's how the connection between the eyes and the brain work. You see things and filter out plenty that doesn't suit the image you create in your head in the first place. Mass' strengths based on whoscored are: Dribbling, Tackling, Defensive contribution (All very strong), aerial duels, Concentration (Both strong) while his weakness is finishing.

For a player playing in a deeper centre mid role, all those strengths are things I'd consider to be the key characteristics, with the exception of passing.

And why do people want us to get a new defensive mid? It's simple, they're forgetting that the one biggest issue isn't the centre mids, it's that the centre backs and full backs totally bypass them on a regular basis with their long balls, Lynch being the biggest example of this. If you don't give the ball to your centre mids, how are they going to create? If you lob it over them to get it to smith, how are your centre mids going to get balls through to your wingers or runners. Why do we play the wrong way with our tall striker? Everyone says Smith can only do the hold up thing, but I guarantee you that if we had wingers playing regularly who were willing to put a ball into the box, he'd score more (a la Wszolek). Right now the tactic is (And has been for so long) "Lob it up to the tall guy and see what happens". No wonder people think we need a new midfielder despite having Luongo, Freeman, Manning, Hall, Goss available in that role. It's because they barely get to see them be creative with the ball because they barely have it. When they do, look at what happens, Luongo and Freeman can both carry the ball forward very well and Manning is a solid passer, same as Goss. It's just that they never get the ball and so people think they aren't doing anything so end up blaming them.

I actually have a lot of time for you nasser but I have to disagree with you on this point. Nobody is complaining about the creativeness of the midfield, its how lightweight they are. We need someone to sit in front of and screen the back 4 and thats been quite obvious to me the past 2 seasons. I think Luongo, Manning and Freeman would do fantastic next season with someone to sit behind them and do the dirty work.

[hal9thou]

Nobody is complaining about the creativeness of the midfield

I am. And have been for the last three seasons. We have no ATM playmaker, no one who can find time / space - or as Ollie says, someone to play the piano. Ravel was a punt in that direction and it was never really gonna come could. Eze could play in the hole behind two which is an ATM role, think it would suit him, but Ollie's tactics and fear of youth beg to differ.

The result of this is Smith / Sylla are isolated, back to goal. It makes no sense whatsoever. Ollie's failure to utilise Sylla is shocking imo, and why buy Smith if you refuse to set up to service him?

[Tarbie]

A goal involvement for one of the worst football playing team every 182 minutes... yea, Matt Phillips definitely is not pulling up trees. The guy was by far West Brom's best player until his injury in February.

Leroy Fer had an incredible first half of the season and he's not been as good in the second half, but he's still a premier league player. Tom Carroll has been getting more time as the season went on and is highly rated and anyone who understands football will value his calmness and composure on the ball. I don't get how you don't value the player who keeps moving the ball as much as he does, when the best teams in the world value that more than anything and will continue to because of the influence of the metronome in midfield.

So no, these players aren't being found out, if Swansea do get relegated, don't expect Fer or Carroll to be there next season. Wonder why? It's because they are premier league players with premier league pedigree and premier league talent and clubs will pay money for them to be there. The stats back that and I will continue to back them because They're facts and I'm not god.

And you talk about high pass accuracy, you do realise stats aren't that basic right? Like, you know they have stats for accurate forward passes, they have positional maps of every pass in every game and where they went. They have positional maps of every touch of every player in every game in the last god knows how many years. Stats are not as simple as you think they are. That's why they're used. It just happens to be the case that you don't look deep enough to value them fairly.

What I value is results Nas. Not just in football, in every area of my life.

You're busy telling me how great Fer and Carroll are, because of what you have read into the stats. What I see is 2 players that are struggling to get a regular game for one of the worst sides in the top flight.

[nasser95]

What I value is results Nas. Not just in football, in every area of my life.

You're busy telling me how great Fer and Carroll are, because of what you have read into the stats. What I see is 2 players that are struggling to get a regular game for one of the worst sides in the top flight.

This is just wrong. I'm telling you that they're good because I've seen them, the stats just happen to back me up. If the stats told me they weren't good players, I'd look at them closely and see what I'm missing, I'm not someone who's blind to the ability to re-evaluate if the date says I'm not right.

And how wrong can you even be on the second point, Carroll has played all 16 games that have happened since joining Swansea, in the starting 11 for 14 of them and subbed on for only 2. Fer has started 26 games and been subbed on for 6, he's only been unused for 4 games all season so you're coming up with stuff that's just wrong and the data proves so. But then you've been doing that this whole time.

[Tarbie]

This is just wrong. I'm telling you that they're good because I've seen them, the stats just happen to back me up. If the stats told me they weren't good players, I'd look at them closely and see what I'm missing, I'm not someone who's blind to the ability to re-evaluate if the date says I'm not right.

And how wrong can you even be on the second point, Carroll has played all 16 games that have happened since joining Swansea, in the starting 11 for 14 of them and subbed on for only 2. Fer has started 26 games and been subbed on for 6, he's only been unused for 4 games all season so you're coming up with stuff that's just wrong and the data proves so. But then you've been doing that this whole time.

Fair enough, so I'm wrong on Carroll being a regular starter. Still don't rate him, along with pretty much everyone on here I'd imagine after his spell with us.