What would you class as progress next season??

[dogsrrs]

Driving to the match's looking forward to the games

[nasser95]

Exactly. So I have it the correct way round because retaining possession is more important IMO. The OP is asking what WE fans class as progress, not JFH. There's your clue.

You made this statement

Playing high-tempo is completely useless if you can't control and keep the football in the first place

It's irrelevant, you don't need to be able to keep the football to play high tempo. You need to be able to play without the football to play high tempo. I just made that point. All you're doing is setting yourself up for disappointment because as you know, the manager wants high tempo, so you're just giving yourself a reason to want him gone by saying that it wouldn't be a success if we don't play more possession football.

[nasser95]

Be careful. No one else on here thinks possession matters.

What they don't get is that the less possession you have, the better you have to be on the ball.

Leicester may not have dominated possession, but they used it properly.

And they aren't exactly made up of world class players, just an intelligent team, much easier to find players to fit that style to be honest.

[Stanley]

you don't need to be able to keep the football to play high tempo.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

You need to be able to play without the football to play high tempo.

That also makes no sense whatsoever.

I just made that point.

Yes, an utterly nonsensical one.

======

No offence intended of course.

[cross it Dave]

Not losing a lead quite so often in the 93 minute, the school end full of Ranger suppoters for all home games, the beer improving in SAR, singing of songs we never hear any more, as mentioned in a recent thread.

Just little things, but quite important.

[dave58]

plays offs? but deffo want to see a better brand of football, and not the dross we had in the latter part of the season

[nasser95]

That makes no sense whatsoever.



That also makes no sense whatsoever.



Yes, an utterly nonsensical one.

======

No offence intended of course.

Ok obviously you are not understanding each point and then pull them out of context to make it look like it makes no sense.

At the moment, there are two very clear ways of playing: Possession and counter. That's something that we can be clear on. Both can be done high tempo but only possession can also be a slow game. However high tempo teams playing possession as well have to have really top class players, something we will not have in the next season.

However, counter attacking teams (teams who don't need to keep the ball all the time to play their game) have to be able to play without the ball. That means hustling well when the opposition has possession, closing quickly, forcing errors while maintaining your shape. That is playing without the football. So it does make plenty of sense to play without the football at high tempo.

Your aim in high tempo is to get the ball from one end to the other as quickly as possible. Thus, you can afford to play risky passes more and accept that you will lose the ball more often than not (thereby forgoing possession) as long as you are good at playing the game without the ball.

This is the philosophy that are keeping Atletico so close to the top 2 in Spain as well as the reason Leicester won the league. It also tends to be the more exciting football in my opinion as you're generally getting the fans pumped every time you win the ball back because the fluidity is so good that the ball just keeps moving forward and fans can push for that.

So you do not need the ball all the time or more often than not (Ie Possession football) to play high tempo. You also need to be able to play intelligently without possession (Ie in defence and closing down intelligently) in order to play high tempo so that when you lose possession, you gain it back quickly. If you want an example of a team who plays possession football while being high tempo, the best examples are Arsenal, Spurs and Barcelona, with the latter in particular famed for their 6 second closing down rule which allows them to play intelligently off the ball in every phase. If they win it back in 6 seconds of heavy closing down, they can attack quickly. If they don't, they can simply return to their standard shape and win the ball back with their world class talent.

Unfortunately, it is very unlikely that we will have this world class talent next season and the most likely way of getting exciting football at LR while winning is to play fast but not necessarily possession oriented football. Not to say we won't keep possession, but saying that it isn't the key priority.

Also, adding no offence intended to a statement doesn't exactly eliminate the offence, albeit not relevant to this case so much haha

[Hove Ranger]

Well that clears it up Nas

[hal9thou]

That makes no sense whatsoever.

I know what Naz means because about once a fortnight for the last few months we've erm discussed this issue.

His point of course is that a high press, high energy game when the ball is lost is particularly useful for sides with limited ability. Like ours. So when Spain were at their best they didn't need to expend energy without the ball because they were so comfortable on it and dominated possession. Naz's point is that to play that kind of game you need the best in the world, who we can not afford (although with a war chest of >0.25b we should have done a little better than dear old Karl Henry, to take one example). Therefore we have no option but to defend stoutly, press, and hope we end up with enough crumbs to take a point or three. And this was very much the JFH model at a lower level where opposition defending frankly wasn't the greatest. But it worked.

The problem with this exegesis is that you really have to max out your meagre share of possession and turn it into points. And for that, you need players who can pass and if necessary keep the ball. You also need to be able to transition really fast from defence into attack without just belting it up top. That's what Leicester are capable of doing and it's also how Arsenal used to play when they were winning titles. It wont work if you can't defend or use the football. Both Arsenal back then and Leicester now were pretty solid at the back and had players with enough vision to create the space for the strikers. Our transition phase is very poor, we don't look comfortable with the ball. I think Naz would agree with most of this.

We're we part company is that I think you need a plan B (which means having the ability to dominate possession from time to time) and I doubt team JFH's ability to implement this.

[nasser95]

I know what Naz means because about once a fortnight for the last few months we've erm discussed this issue.

His point of course is that a high press, high energy game when the ball is lost is particularly useful for sides with limited ability. Like ours. So when Spain were at their best they didn't need to expend energy without the ball because they were so comfortable on it and dominated possession. Naz's point is that to play that kind of game you need the best in the world, who we can not afford (although with a war chest of >0.25b we should have done a little better than dear old Karl Henry, to take one example). Therefore we have no option but to defend stoutly, press, and hope we end up with enough crumbs to take a point or three. And this was very much the JFH model at a lower level where opposition defending frankly wasn't the greatest. But it worked.

The problem with this exegesis is that you really have to max out your meagre share of possession and turn it into points. And for that, you need players who can pass and if necessary keep the ball. You also need to be able to transition really fast from defence into attack without just belting it up top. That's what Leicester are capable of doing and it's also how Arsenal used to play when they were winning titles. It wont work if you can't defend or use the football. Both Arsenal back then and Leicester now were pretty solid at the back and had players with enough vision to create the space for the strikers. Our transition phase is very poor, we don't look comfortable with the ball. I think Naz would agree with most of this.

We're we part company is that I think you need a plan B (which means having the ability to dominate possession from time to time) and I doubt team JFH's ability to implement this.

I actually totally do agree with this, although as you said, I personally think differently about JFH's ability to hold possession when needed. A lot of the time, we end up going down in possession simply because the opposition are trying to throw the kitchen sink at us at the end of the game.

[Stanley]

Well now you've actually explained what you meant then of course it makes perfect sense (unlike your earlier posts). Not that I agree with that approach as I'd already explained in my original post. The point that seemed lost on you is that the OP is asking what we the fans would class as progress - to which I gave my response. You then jumped on that that as an excuse for me to blame JFH next season if he doesn't adopt that - which of course is wholly untrue. It wasn't intended as a criticism, I was simply giving my personal preference. If JFH plays an exciting, entertaining and successful brand of football next season then I will be at the head of the queue to sing my praises for him.

[nasser95]

Well now you've actually explained what you meant then of course it makes perfect sense (unlike your earlier posts). Not that I agree with that approach as I'd already explained in my original post. The point that seemed lost on you is that the OP is asking what we the fans would class as progress - to which I gave my response. You then jumped on that that as an excuse for me to blame JFH next season if he doesn't adopt that - which of course is wholly untrue. It wasn't intended as a criticism, I was simply giving my personal preference. If JFH plays an exciting, entertaining and successful brand of football next season then I will be at the head of the queue to sing my praises for him.

I think you took me saying "I think you've got it the wrong way round mate." as me saying this isn't how we'll play. I was just making a point regarding the style of play itself initially mate, not whether JFH would adopt it here. Obviously we'd love to see loads of possession and much more attacking football, but my point was that without crazy talent, we're unlikely to get that. I get that it's what you want to see, I think it's what we all want to see, but obviously - you must admit - it's very unlikely that any club at this level can play to that standard, the players just aren't good enough. That was all I was saying mate.

[Stanley]

I think you took me saying "I think you've got it the wrong way round mate." as me saying this isn't how we'll play.

Nope, this little nugget:

you're just giving yourself a reason to want him gone by saying that it wouldn't be a success if we don't play more possession football.

Which is total groundless nonsense.

[nasser95]

Nope, this little nugget:



Which is total groundless nonsense.

Oh this came after, it all, but the point stands that your primary suggestion of progress is to play a certain style of play, assuming this is the answer to the OP's question. Therein lies my point, which was that looking for a particular style of play to be a sign of progress, which suggested to me that if we didn't go towards that style of play, you wouldn't view the season as a success. That's why I suggested that in the knowledge that as a club we most likely wouldn't be headed in that direction, surely basing success or failure on that particular criteria is putting yourself into a position where you're really giving the failure side a big push. Obviously you want the club to succeed but with that particular point, I just thought it seemed a bit odd.

[Stanley]

Oh this came after, it all, but the point stands that your primary suggestion of progress is to play a certain style of play, assuming this is the answer to the OP's question. Therein lies my point, which was that looking for a particular style of play to be a sign of progress, which suggested to me that if we didn't go towards that style of play, you wouldn't view the season as a success. That's why I suggested that in the knowledge that as a club we most likely wouldn't be headed in that direction, surely basing success or failure on that particular criteria is putting yourself into a position where you're really giving the failure side a big push. Obviously you want the club to succeed but with that particular point, I just thought it seemed a bit odd.

Nasser, you're a great poster and a good sport mate. However I think you're just over-analysing what I wrote. All I was doing was giving my opinion as to what I feel progress would be. That's it. Just a personal opinion, like the OP asked for. It was never intended as a criticism of JFH and his style of play, now or projected on to next season. As a fan of course I hope he succeeds with his approach, whether it's to my personal taste or not.

Is that ok with you now?