Les caretaker manager vs Bristol City?

[Ginger Ninja]

I don't post here very often - Am I missing some sort of joke?

What has happened to our fans? The guy has come into a disastrous situation with a squad (at no fault of his own) which is pulling in all sorts of directions. He has a couple of guys with no interest in earning their wages but amorous eyes at collecting them, he has a few with little or no experience at this level that are cutting their teeth, trying to be effective and he has a few with inflated opinions and lethargic output. All the time he has a key goal to get younger and cheaper without much outlay.

This is not the time to judge the manager. Not solely on points and wins.

We have been a total mess of a club for the best part of a decade. The (undoubted) success we've enjoyed has been short lived and built with the short term in mind. We're finally looking at things from a different angle now. We're building within our means and for the long term. Changing managers every six months won't do anything to help. He's young and is still learning from his mistakes. For goodness sake have some patience and let the guy build a squad, a style, an ethic and have his say for a couple of full seasons at least. Otherwise we'll be stuck in this purgatory forever.

Precisely. Great post. What a sh!t thread.

[Bluehoop]

Precisely. Great post. What a sh!t thread.

And as Croydon said yesterday, it's a shame Padula doesn't contribute more if that's an example of the likely content of further comments

[hal9thou]

I think there is a question about the type of football you want to watch. All of those (like Naz) overjoyed by JFH's recruitment may not have done their homework, his is a damage limitation style of football. He got away with that at Burton, but it wont get us promoted, and you can quote me on that this time next year. Shutting up shop and hoofing it is pre historic and depends on an absolutely water tight defence. We're nowhere near that. He is right to try and tighten things up at the back as priority number one, but from there the ball needs to be moved forward on the deck and at pace. That's basically Leicester's formula and it is very similar to the way Arsenal used to play when they could defend (invincibles era). You can't counter attack just by hoofing it at any decent level. But I'm not sure any of those models ring true with our history - our best league form ever came via playing football. Having possession domination may not win you games, but always being totally unable to dominate it is a problem.

But I'll tell you the worst thing about this regime. They aren't turning up for him on a regular basis, they aren't always bang up for it. That spirit is his job to engender, and I don't think they'd get in the trenches for him or the love of the club. Does he inspire, do they respect him? I don't think so for one moment.

[nasser95]

I think there is a question about the type of football you want to watch. All of those (like Naz) overjoyed by JFH's recruitment may not have done their homework, his is a damage limitation style of football. He got away with that at Burton, but it wont get us promoted, and you can quote me on that this time next year. Shutting up shop and hoofing it is pre historic and depends on an absolutely water tight defence. We're nowhere near that. He is right to try and tighten things up at the back as priority number one, but from there the ball needs to be moved forward on the deck and at pace. That's basically Leicester's formula and it is very similar to the way Arsenal used to play when they could defend (invincibles era). You can't counter attack just by hoofing it at any decent level. But I'm not sure any of those models ring true with our history - our best league form ever came via playing football. Having possession domination may not win you games, but always being totally unable to dominate it is a problem.

But I'll tell you the worst thing about this regime. They aren't turning up for him on a regular basis, they aren't always bang up for it. That spirit is his job to engender, and I don't think they'd get in the trenches for him or the love of the club. Does he inspire, do they respect him? I don't think so for one moment.

Ooohh shocker, you call me out on a thread and say I of all people haven't done my homework. That's all I do Hal, you should know that, but just because it's not what you agree with, it's wrong apparently. To be honest, everything you've said here about his style of play is just incorrect. Long ball tactics are very limited, certainly less than the Ramsey era. In fact, we play 22% long passes, Middlesbrough, who many consider to play the best football in the league play 17%, not significantly less than us. Ipswich play about 23% as well but they get praise. But then, I wouldn't suspect you've done your homework.

And again, it comes as no surprise you bring up motivation and ignore context.

Finally, it's all about what you want, you can want possession football and that's absolutely fine but takes time, but then you can also want efficient football and that's a style that also takes time to develop. No surprise to me however, despite the club being in transition, you won't give someone that time and that's a real shame.

[SuperHoopNik]

Played great football in his early games especially vs Brighton at home....but that was when Charlie was here!
He's trialling new ideas and tactics at the moment based on the current crop (e.g. Polter )and I don't see why not.

[hal9thou]

In fact, we play 22% long passes

Fair play, but it wouldn't matter if the 88% were more productive. Stats must always be put in context.

You mention Boro. Using stats alone, what in your opinion would be the key one accounting for the discrepancy between our position and theirs bar goals scored, conceded, and assisted.

In between defending and attacking, successful sides must be doing something we are not. I personally think there are two key things we aren't doing, but let's see what the stats come up with.

One problem which is emerging re Polter. Selecting him seems to have had a negative influence on the style we play and therefore outcome. I'd be interested in stats pre and post Polter this season.

[Martinmalta]

I don't post here very often - Am I missing some sort of joke?

What has happened to our fans? The guy has come into a disastrous situation with a squad (at no fault of his own) which is pulling in all sorts of directions. He has a couple of guys with no interest in earning their wages but amorous eyes at collecting them, he has a few with little or no experience at this level that are cutting their teeth, trying to be effective and he has a few with inflated opinions and lethargic output. All the time he has a key goal to get younger and cheaper without much outlay.

This is not the time to judge the manager. Not solely on points and wins.

We have been a total mess of a club for the best part of a decade. The (undoubted) success we've enjoyed has been short lived and built with the short term in mind. We're finally looking at things from a different angle now. We're building within our means and for the long term. Changing managers every six months won't do anything to help. He's young and is still learning from his mistakes. For goodness sake have some patience and let the guy build a squad, a style, an ethic and have his say for a couple of full seasons at least. Otherwise we'll be stuck in this purgatory forever.

Totally agree. If we wanted a short term solution, Warnock would have been the perfect choice. But then what? Going again through the same three seasons we spent in the Premier? Let him built his own team, without putting the club in more financial ruins.

[nasser95]

Fair play, but it wouldn't matter if the 88% were more productive. Stats must always be put in context.

You mention Boro. Using stats alone, what in your opinion would be the key one accounting for the discrepancy between our position and theirs bar goals scored, conceded, and assisted.

In between defending and attacking, successful sides must be doing something we are not. I personally think there are two key things we aren't doing, but let's see what the stats come up with.

One problem which is emerging re Polter. Selecting him seems to have had a negative influence on the style we play and therefore outcome. I'd be interested in stats pre and post Polter this season.

Pre and post Polter stats are kind of irrelevant given that we had Austin - one of the best natural goalscorers in this country - playing before. Next season we'll be able to compare better. And I agree, there are discrepencies between us and Middlesbrough, namely their counter attacking ability which we are slowly trying to develop from what I see on the pitch as well as their ability to protect the lead, which is also true of Atletico, true of Leicester, etc. But look at the examples of these clubs, what wins them matches? Scoring loads? or conceding little? I'd go with the latter. It's a different style of play for each case and neither is particularly wrong but if the club is going in one direction or the other, they stick with it and develop it from the direction of importance. If you're going to be a gung ho team and go for constant attacking but risk getting countered, that works as long as you start working from the front backwards. But we are going for the opposite, which is solidity, then counter. For that to work, you really have to play defensively and develop that side of the game, then work forward.

Remember, we had 0 suggestion of what our style of play would be for much of the last 4 years. We're starting from scratch with one style and we need to take time to develop that. I just want to show you the Athletico example, when Simeone took over in 2011, the team made the most fouls per game, attempted the 4th most tackles per game and conceded the 4th fewest shots per game. At the same time however, they were only 10th in short passes per game, only 6th in goals scored but 4th in goals conceded. They finished 5th that season. The season before Simeone, they finished 7th only on head to head results, their goal difference would have put them 5th. There is enough suggestions of potential improvement in the future but in truth, their season hadn't been much of an improvement in itself from the previous season.

A year later, they went down to 5th in fouls per game, 3rd in attempted and successful tackles per game, conceded the second fewest shots per game only behind barcelona, but their passing once again was very average, around 12th in the league for accurate short passes. They were 5th in goals scored again but their major improvement was having the fewest goals conceded in the league. They finished 3rd that season, not because of their attacking prowess, or their chance creating and flowing passing football, but because they sorted out their defence and developed their counter. It took them 2 years of working with Simeone to do that. For those two years, their passing success was distinctly average overall at around 10th in the league.

Before Simeone, they conceded the 10th most goals in the league while scoring the 5th most. All that changed was they became better defensively and didn't concede as much. Look at how revered they are in world football now because of their defensive resolve. Look at leicester, who won the league primarily because they adapted to the conditions and became more defensively resolute half way through the season. They went from the most exciting football to some of the more boring stuff in the league, maintaining solidity defensively and playing long balls out. They won the league doing that. We're trying to accomplish something similar, but we didn't start with the same infrastructure Atletico did, so it's going to take us longer, but you really have to give the manager time to implement this.

[hal9thou]

Pre and post Polter etc

Good post. I agree that not conceding is as good a place as any to start. My worry is the next stage, the transition, how we use ball won at the back. It isn't always possible to build a counter at speed, and anyway in order to do that on the deck you have to be comfortable in possession. That doesn't mean you have to control possession, but you shouldn't squander it.

As you know that bit worries me - how we use our possession.

[nasser95]

Good post. I agree that not conceding is as good a place as any to start. My worry is the next stage, the transition, how we use ball won at the back. It isn't always possible to build a counter at speed, and anyway in order to do that on the deck you have to be comfortable in possession. That doesn't mean you have to control possession, but you shouldn't squander it.

As you know that bit worries me - how we use our possession.

I can understand that, there's the transition from defence to midfield and at times, Faurlin is sort of left empty handed by the fact that the full backs don't get forward and the fact that the centre backs both like to play it to the full backs deep, who then proceed to ignore the middle. We really do need to just trust Faurlin and Luongo more on the ball than we are now, I don't know why the players play it around them. Perhaps with the right preseason, we might see more of the central, forward thinking football.