A new season

[hal9thou]

Great idea, hire Warnock, have him take us up and then replace him with a prem manager, only to find that Warnock was so good at motivating that these players don't perform as hard for another manager

But you don't know that do you? Hypothesis yet again from you. Just because JFH can't motivate doesn't mean others will be equally hopeless.

I notice you still haven't answered those questions (apologies if you have done so meanwhile). Would you renew his contract if we're in the same position we were in when he came?
How long is your love in against all available evidence going to continue?

[Shepherds Mush]

Just because JFH can't motivate

Would love to know where this fact has come from.

[hal9thou]

Would love to know where this fact has come from.

I never cited it as fact, I simply see very little of evidence of 11 well paid individuals putting in a combined shift on a regular basis.

It may not be a good thing, but managers have to earn the players respect. Otherwise they don't always turn up.

[nasser95]

But you don't know that do you? Hypothesis yet again from you. Just because JFH can't motivate doesn't mean others will be equally hopeless.

I notice you still haven't answered those questions (apologies if you have done so meanwhile). Would you renew his contract if we're in the same position we were in when he came?
How long is your love in against all available evidence going to continue?

What is not known as fact? That Warnock motivates players at this level like no other manager? That he makes the most out of limited talent with hard work? You'd accept that as fact, it's thus only natural to make the suggestion based on historical evidence that no one will motivate players like ours who aren't super talented to end up playing to 150%. We'll end up with the shroud of Warnock removed and all those players who we know aren't good enough for prem football now, not being good enough next season and not having the motivator Warnock in charge to push them above their limit. Then what? We bring in a new manager, he brings in new players, we lose the core of what we have and we deal with the exact same situation we were in 4 years ago.

JFH is more than capable of motivating, you keep making this point and - to quote you - your love in against all available evidence, including the fact that this is a dead season and I've seen die hard fans of the club unable to motivate themselves to show up, how is he going to motivate players to play to 100% with nothing to play for? I've seen enough to feel confident about him and the future. He's a solid manager defensively - something we cried out for at the start of the season but then complained about when we got it. He's young, got plenty of desire to improve and take the club forward, he doesn't lose much, he's not a "loser" and doesn't bring that attitude to the club which is important.

If I see enough to suggest 1) the off pitch aspects of the club that JFH and Les are in charge of have been improved since they came here and 2) Either the Points total or Performances will have improved in a few aspects since the Ramsey era, then he will be deserving of a renewal. So far, I feel he is worthy but it isn't right to make a full judgement until next season.

[hal9thou]

What is not known as fact?

This bit: " only to find that Warnock was so good at motivating that these players don't perform as hard for another manager"

[Awin]

What is not known as fact? That Warnock motivates players at this level like no other manager? That he makes the most out of limited talent with hard work? You'd accept that as fact, it's thus only natural to make the suggestion based on historical evidence that no one will motivate players like ours who aren't super talented to end up playing to 150%. We'll end up with the shroud of Warnock removed and all those players who we know aren't good enough for prem football now, not being good enough next season and not having the motivator Warnock in charge to push them above their limit. Then what? We bring in a new manager, he brings in new players, we lose the core of what we have and we deal with the exact same situation we were in 4 years ago.

JFH is more than capable of motivating, you keep making this point and - to quote you - your love in against all available evidence, including the fact that this is a dead season and I've seen die hard fans of the club unable to motivate themselves to show up, how is he going to motivate players to play to 100% with nothing to play for? I've seen enough to feel confident about him and the future. He's a solid manager defensively - something we cried out for at the start of the season but then complained about when we got it. He's young, got plenty of desire to improve and take the club forward, he doesn't lose much, he's not a "loser" and doesn't bring that attitude to the club which is important.

If I see enough to suggest 1) the off pitch aspects of the club that JFH and Les are in charge of have been improved since they came here and 2) Either the Points total or Performances will have improved in a few aspects since the Ramsey era, then he will be deserving of a renewal. So far, I feel he is worthy but it isn't right to make a full judgement until next season.

nail preverbially hit on the head.

[Olly]

Spot on.

No half decent manager worth their salt would work under a dof.

We are left with novices or pe teachers.

Cue Pellegrini and Guardiola

[nasser95]

Cue Pellegrini and Guardiola

But they don't count because they don't fit into the required agenda for complaining about anything.

[Rangers77]

But they don't count because they don't fit into the required agenda for complaining about anything.

People are allowed to complain on here......

[nasser95]

People are allowed to complain on here......

Absolutely, complaining about something is key, but personally, don't think everything being complained about is "complainable" (know it's not a word but just go with it). I can understand why people don't like DoF setups, but saying a respectable manager won't work under one is just plain wrong.

[Stanley]

Absolutely, complaining about something is key, but personally, don't think everything being complained about is "complainable" (know it's not a word but just go with it). I can understand why people don't like DoF setups, but saying a respectable manager won't work under one is just plain wrong.

Just to interject Nass, my impression is that people aren't complaining about a DoF role per se; but questioning whether or not a club of our relatively small size really needs one. In that sense I would say people certainly have the right to voice that concern as part of the wider debate; and doing so should not necessarily be interpreted as an attack on the club.

[nasser95]

Just to interject Nass, my impression is that people aren't complaining about a DoF role per se; but questioning whether or not a club of our relatively small size really needs one. In that sense I would say people certainly have the right to voice that concern as part of the wider debate; and doing so should not necessarily be interpreted as an attack on the club.

I don't think scale should really be an element of it. If we don't make the decision to grow in every way, we are limiting our potential growth. Eventually if we do become a big club, we'll end up having a DoF just like most other big clubs. All we're doing is preparing for that early. Separating roles gives better specialisation. To my knowledge it's pretty basic economic theory, better division of labour means more efficiency in the roles undertaken.

[Shepherds Mush]

Just to interject Nass, my impression is that people aren't complaining about a DoF role per se; but questioning whether or not a club of our relatively small size really needs one. In that sense I would say people certainly have the right to voice that concern as part of the wider debate; and doing so should not necessarily be interpreted as an attack on the club.

Most people are banging on about decent managers not wanting to work with a DoF.

Well, Claudio Ranieri didn't mind working with one and he proved to be decent.

[hal9thou]

If we don't make the decision to grow in every way, we are limiting our potential growth

I think we're going round in circles here. Growing implies success, but critics have concerns about the means we are choosing to pursue that goal.

We all of us want the same thing, but there is disagreement about the best way to achieve it. You think we're doing the right things, I'm questioning them. That's the nature of opinion. Events on the park will show whose viewpoint was closer to reality.

Cue Pellegrini and Guardiola

They weren't asked to work with our regime under Les.

It is not the DoF per se that I have a problem with, although - unlike Naz - given our newly imposed financial strictures I believe scale does come into this. Additionally it seemed to me a big risk to have an inexperienced DoF and a relatively inexperienced manager.

[nasser95]

I think we're going round in circles here. Growing implies success, but critics have concerns about the means we are choosing to pursue that goal.

We all of us want the same thing, but there is disagreement about the best way to achieve it. You think we're doing the right things, I'm questioning them. That's the nature of opinion. Events on the park will show whose viewpoint was closer to reality.




They weren't asked to work with our regime under Les.

It is not the DoF per se that I have a problem with, although - unlike Naz - given our newly imposed financial strictures I believe scale does come into this. Additionally it seemed to me a big risk to have an inexperienced DoF and a relatively inexperienced manager.

As I've said about 1 million times in this thread and others, it is indeed all about opinion, I'm glad we can agree on that, although the questioning of DoF by Hitman as you will see was specifically A DoF, not just ours, but conceptually A DoF would not attract top managers, which simply isn't true.