Why do we find it hard to score?

[brightonr]

Perch has improved. Not knocking him in the slightest, I simply don't regard him as a specialist right back.

Sure, he can play across the defence when called upon, but so can Ned. Has been very good for us on the left side, where he played with Wigan. Indeed, scoring in the play off game from that side.

Simpson was a right back and still is. Far better to play people in the positions that suit them best. They tend to perform better.

Anyway, Perch isn't the problem Nasser, it's the rubbish in front of him.

[MYU]

I'd still sort out the back line first, once that's sorted the midfield might feel more confident to attack.

[nasser95]

Perch has improved. Not knocking him in the slightest, I simply don't regard him as a specialist right back.

Sure, he can play across the defence when called upon, but so can Ned. Has been very good for us on the left side, where he played with Wigan. Indeed, scoring in the play off game from that side.

Simpson was a right back and still is. Far better to play people in the positions that suit them best. They tend to perform better.

Anyway, Perch isn't the problem Nasser, it's the rubbish in front of him.

Perch played Right Back in the play off final and has played right back 97 times in his career, 44 times as cdm, only 25 times as a left back and 25 as a centre back. He played left back 12 times in his 95 appearances for Wigan as well and none came in play off matches.

Perch is a right back who is capable of playing elsewhere imo, that's where he sees himself at his best and that is where his future at this club should be.

As for whether there's rubbish in front of him, people saying our midfield lacks forward thinking, we've played the 6th most successful key through balls in the league and our top 2 assisting central midfield players (CDM, CM, CAM) have a combined total of 11 assists total with 7 from open play (Luongo and Faurlin). They've even played a total of 59 successful key passes (non crossing, corner or free kick) and considering Derby have made the most with 352 key passes as a club not including corners, crosses or free kick deliveries, for 2 players to play almost 17% of the key passes of the entirety of the most forward thinking team in the division is rather impressive. These aren't even the most advanced midfielders in our team, we still have Chery occupying that role and he's done rather well himself there.

The whole point of that was to show that I still believe that with the right striker, doing the right things, we'd get a lot more goals. That's not to say that Washington and Polter are bad strikers or even that we need an incredible world class striker like Austin was with us, but what I believe is that we're looking at a situation of changing a midfield 5 to accommodate one striker or doing the other way around. There isn't a right or wrong answer to this, as it's dependant on a style of play, but the way I see it, it makes more sense having a striker who knows what we need him to do and what positions to get into to receive the ball and convert chances much better than our boys are doing right now.

[Shepherds Mush]

Fair enough, my memory is terrible. Would be wonderful if any of the three scored a goal between them a season though.

Exactly - our shots on target is poor. Can remember Luongo bottling at least 2 sitters in various games early in the season and I can't remember a Faurlin free-kick on target for ages.

I discount Henry - see him as a 5th defender

[Rangers77]

Perch played Right Back in the play off final and has played right back 97 times in his career, 44 times as cdm, only 25 times as a left back and 25 as a centre back. He played left back 12 times in his 95 appearances for Wigan as well and none came in play off matches.

Perch is a right back who is capable of playing elsewhere imo, that's where he sees himself at his best and that is where his future at this club should be.

As for whether there's rubbish in front of him, people saying our midfield lacks forward thinking, we've played the 6th most successful key through balls in the league and our top 2 assisting central midfield players (CDM, CM, CAM) have a combined total of 11 assists total with 7 from open play (Luongo and Faurlin). They've even played a total of 59 successful key passes (non crossing, corner or free kick) and considering Derby have made the most with 352 key passes as a club not including corners, crosses or free kick deliveries, for 2 players to play almost 17% of the key passes of the entirety of the most forward thinking team in the division is rather impressive. These aren't even the most advanced midfielders in our team, we still have Chery occupying that role and he's done rather well himself there.

The whole point of that was to show that I still believe that with the right striker, doing the right things, we'd get a lot more goals. That's not to say that Washington and Polter are bad strikers or even that we need an incredible world class striker like Austin was with us, but what I believe is that we're looking at a situation of changing a midfield 5 to accommodate one striker or doing the other way around. There isn't a right or wrong answer to this, as it's dependant on a style of play, but the way I see it, it makes more sense having a striker who knows what we need him to do and what positions to get into to receive the ball and convert chances much better than our boys are doing right now.

Oh good God.

[nasser95]

Another thing I noticed (and sorry to add more onto the already long post) is that our strikers are not taking enough shots. Once again, I bring a comparison of the time with Austin as striker to Washington and Polter. What Austin did so well was turn every half chance into a shooting opportunity. This season, he played 1022 minutes for us as a starter and took 43 shots in total, 22 of which were from inside the box. Now, over the course of the season, our wingers and midfielders haven't changed personnel wise and we haven't gotten less attacking, but we were shooting more before and making more chances. Why? Because Austin always looked to play the shot. From those 43 shots as a starter, Austin scored 9, 7 of which were inside the box. That's a 20.9% conversion rate as a starter, remarkable for any player (Messi and Ronaldo are converting just under 20% fyi).

But we already knew his finishing was remarkable. What's incredible was the sheer volume with which he shot. Polter and Washington combined have 38 shots between them (30 and 8) in 1358 and 483 minutes respectively as starters. Of those shots, Polter took 20 from inside the box and Conor took 6. That is not enough shots and you can see the reasons why on the pitch. Both players like to come deep and hassle the defence. We know that, we've seen that regularly. They are so deep in fact that they are not in a position to take shots and create half chances. Austin always created half chances just by shooting. Teams don't look to close down CW and Seb because there's no point, they don't shoot much. You can see Polter's hesitancy in shooting and the same goes for Washington. What they need to do is just shoot more, try and force pressure, know that it's ok to shoot and lose possession because your teammates can win it back. They are trying too hard to be team players, perhaps what we need is someone selfish.

[Timmy the Doc]

Our full-backs! What have they created?

[nasser95]

Oh good God.

The numbers are there as validation for the fact that we've had half a season where we couldn't stop scoring but kept conceding and we've had half a season where the opposite happens in general. What's the difference? Charlie Austin. Personally I don't think our midfield isn't creative enough. Maybe the deep ones don't shoot enough but they aren't exactly supposed to, Chery when playing is made for that role of just getting the ball, running up, making space for himself and others and shooting or playing through balls. You can see Luongo is creating plenty and Faurlin's set piece deliver has been great. They keep the ball well, move it around but the issue is that the players made for shooting aren't doing it enough. At that point, people start saying that we don't shoot enough (which is true) and it must be because our midfield isn't creative enough and aren't letting our strikers take shots (which I don't think is true).

[nasser95]

Our full-backs! What have they created?

This is very true as well, I think when Perch is playing right back, he does actually create, but having one side of the pitch become totally locked off from attacking by having Konch play, or when we finally got Robinson back having to play Onuoha on the other side, does not help. If full backs don't get forward, wingers get double teamed and we don't get much going.

[brightonr]

Oh good God.

I don't think he's ever going to get it. Christ alive, I wish I could have so much faith.

Nasser, I understand that you will defend the club, the manager and the players with vigour at every opportunity. I really do and I think it's admirable. In fact, I was so fed up with the negativity in relation to what this season held in store, I started the Stan Bowles bet thread. I honestly believed that the players would perform to the level they were capable of. I also had faith in CR, due to the high esteem he appeared to be held in throughout the game, (despite no evidence to the contrary since replacing the previous idiot) and thought he would be perfectly competent. I was proved horribly wrong on all counts.

I was really pleased when JFH got the job. Great player and a growing reputation as a bright young manager. Of course, when you are taking the longer term view, things will take a little longer to turn around, but in my opinion, he has been less than impressive so far.

I'd be interested to know, (and this is in no way a JFH out type of comment), if the fans thought he would be doing better, the same, or even worse than he has so far as evidnced by both the results and performances. I suspect that the majority were hoping for considerably better, even if not quite making the top 6.

Happy to have a straight bet for another £100 with you right now that we won't be promoted with him in charge next season, either automatically or via the play offs.

[Rangers77]

This is very true as well, I think when Perch is playing right back, he does actually create, but having one side of the pitch become totally locked off from attacking by having Konch play, or when we finally got Robinson back having to play Onuoha on the other side, does not help. If full backs don't get forward, wingers get double teamed and we don't get much going.

Now, finally, I'm with you, Nasser.......

[nasser95]

Now, finally, I'm with you, Nasser.......

The telling point for me is that in 6 of the matches where Phillips has scored or assisted (out of 10), the full back behind him has been Perch. Reason probably is because Perch can actually help him turn the double team onto the opposition full back, force the space and allow more crosses. You want a winger to do more? Give him some support. Same principle goes with hoilett. Whenever he cuts in, he has to create the space for himself because the full back can double up on him with the defensive mids and centre backs. Is it a wonder then that Hoilett has gotten so much better since we've displaced Konchesky? What happened instead was that you see Perch running and overlapping, Hoilett gets space in the middle as the full back is occupied with Perch and sees him as an actual threat and Hoilett can get a shot off and it can be lethal.
The issue we're having is that up until now as I've said, we've had one real full back playing all season and that was Perch. At any one time, only one winger was truly able to be effective consistently as a result without risking our defensive stability (Konch could run up and support Hoilett, but we always left gaps when he didn't get back). Look at what happens as soon as we get two full backs in vs Charlton in the form of Robinson and Perch. The 3 true wingers that are involved at any point in that game all get involved. Hoilett Gets an assist to Phillips who scores and Nasser also scores. Is it a coincidence that we have two capable full backs in this game? I don't think so. Even when Perch comes off, which side do we then score from? The side that we have an actual full back.

[nasser95]

I don't think he's ever going to get it. Christ alive, I wish I could have so much faith.

Nasser, I understand that you will defend the club, the manager and the players with vigour at every opportunity. I really do and I think it's admirable. In fact, I was so fed up with the negativity in relation to what this season held in store, I started the Stan Bowles bet thread. I honestly believed that the players would perform to the level they were capable of. I also had faith in CR, due to the high esteem he appeared to be held in throughout the game, (despite no evidence to the contrary since replacing the previous idiot) and thought he would be perfectly competent. I was proved horribly wrong on all counts.

I was really pleased when JFH got the job. Great player and a growing reputation as a bright young manager. Of course, when you are taking the longer term view, things will take a little longer to turn around, but in my opinion, he has been less than impressive so far.

I'd be interested to know, (and this is in no way a JFH out type of comment), if the fans thought he would be doing better, the same, or even worse than he has so far as evidnced by both the results and performances. I suspect that the majority were hoping for considerably better, even if not quite making the top 6.

Happy to have a straight bet for another £100 with you right now that we won't be promoted with him in charge next season, either automatically or via the play offs.

Mate I'll be honest with you, there wasn't much positivity in those particular posts, but yea, in general I have quite a positive outlook. The major point was that our strikers aren't "striking" enough with the time they have. But you ask if I believe we will get promoted next year? I hope we do but as long as signs show that we are capable of doing it properly in the next few years, I wouldn't be disappointed if we don't go up. Do I think he's done better than I thought? I'd say given the fact that he's played a totally different style of play compared to what we built for over the summer, he's done just above my expectations. Given that he's gotten rid of the big earners and has done quite well in setting up a clear style and a clear direction, I'd say he's doing better.

But will I take you on that bet? If I was a man capable of betting £100 on what I would consider to be a 50 50 chance, I would. Unfortunately, student life for another year coupled with the 50% price hike I'm dealing with for the season ticket on account of being over 21 for 2 months of the coming season would make the bet quite difficult mate haha.

[Rangers77]

The telling point for me is that in 6 of the matches where Phillips has scored or assisted (out of 10), the full back behind him has been Perch. Reason probably is because Perch can actually help him turn the double team onto the opposition full back, force the space and allow more crosses. You want a winger to do more? Give him some support. Same principle goes with hoilett. Whenever he cuts in, he has to create the space for himself because the full back can double up on him with the defensive mids and centre backs. Is it a wonder then that Hoilett has gotten so much better since we've displaced Konchesky? What happened instead was that you see Perch running and overlapping, Hoilett gets space in the middle as the full back is occupied with Perch and sees him as an actual threat and Hoilett can get a shot off and it can be lethal.
The issue we're having is that up until now as I've said, we've had one real full back playing all season and that was Perch. At any one time, only one winger was truly able to be effective consistently as a result without risking our defensive stability (Konch could run up and support Hoilett, but we always left gaps when he didn't get back). Look at what happens as soon as we get two full backs in vs Charlton in the form of Robinson and Perch. The 3 true wingers that are involved at any point in that game all get involved. Hoilett Gets an assist to Phillips who scores and Nasser also scores. Is it a coincidence that we have two capable full backs in this game? I don't think so. Even when Perch comes off, which side do we then score from? The side that we have an actual full back.

Pričanje tačka za mene je to u 6. utakmica gde Filips je postigao, puna iza njega je smuđa. Razlog je verovatno zato što Smuđ zapravo može pomoći da pretvoriti u dvostruku tim na opozicije pun unazad, na silu prostor i omogućavaju više krstova. Želiš krilo da uradi više? Dajte mu malo podrške. Isto važi i za Hoilett. Kad god je seče u, on mora da stvori prostor za sebe, jer je puna unazad može da udvostruči na njega sa odbrambenim srednjih i visokih centara leđa. Da li je to čudo da Hoilett je postala toliko mnogo bolje od kada smo raseljeni Koncheski? Šta se dogodilo umesto toga je da vidiš Smuđ trčanje i preklapaju, Hoilett dobija prostor u sredini kao što je puna leđa se bavi Perch i da ga vidi kao stvarnu pretnju i Hoilett mogu uputi loptu ka golu i to može biti smrtonosan.

Pitanje imamo je da do sada, kao što sam rekao, mi smo imali jednu pravu punu leđa igra cele sezone i to je Smuđ. U jednom trenutku, samo jedan krilo je zaista u stanju da važi konzistentno, kao rezultat bez rizika našu odbrambenu stabilnost (Konch mogao da radi i podrška HOILETT, ali smo uvek ostavili praznine kada se nije vratio se). Pogledajte šta se dešava čim stignemo dva puna leđa u protiv Charlton u vidu Robinsona i Perch. The 3 pravi krila koja su uključena u bilo kom trenutku u toj igri svi se uključe. Hoilett dobija pomogne da Phillips koji postigne i Nasser takođe rezultati. Da li je to slučajnost da imamo dve sposobne pune leđa u ovoj igri? Ne slažem se. Čak i kada Smuđ se skida, sa koje strane da radimo onda pogodi sa? Bočni da imamo stvarni punu leđaT

You've lost me now, I'm afraid......

[qprted]

sometimes there are no right way or correct way to do it these players have no frespect for the management staff we need to change them its that simple