5 years from now under JFH & NW?

[Stanley]

So you still firmly believe warnock would have kept us up?

I have never said that. Kindly read my posts. The truth is that no one will ever know that.

I said that he was not sacked purely for footballing reasons. TF, fresh into the role and, by his own admission, was naive at the time and made mistakes. He'd allowed outside influences to turn his head into getting Beard to sack NW - underhand tactics by Joorabchian and his cohorts, plus a minority of very vocal R's supporters. The majority of our fans wanted Warnock given more time to turn things around, and to at least be given a full transfer window (January) to get his 1st choice targets. Hughes had been given virtually an open cheque-book to go and sign all his 1st choices. Warnock was never afforded such a luxury - his signings were all his 2nd or 3rd choices due to the 11th hour takeover. I could of course go into a lot more detail but that's covering VERY old ground now.

there is proof that Warnock would not have kept us up

There is no such proof at all, and such a thing could never be proven. You, of all people, should know that.

he cannot be a long term solution to a club aiming for the premier league.

Now maybe, but we're talking about 4 years ago, following an incredible Championship winning season.

[Ramsey is god]

So you still firmly believe warnock would have kept us up?

also, 10 points from 10 away games would be pretty good if we had more than 7 points from 10 home games and it is a far too risky game to rely on away results over home results. Look as well at who those home matches were against and realise that these are games we should be winning and yet warnock couldn't win them. Of the 10 home matches we managed to lose 5 against Bolton, Man City, Man Utd, Sunderland and Norwich, Drawing to Blackburn, West Brom, Villa, Newcastle. I'd say there are 3 matches there where we weren't expected to be winning at home (City, Utd, Newcastle) but all the others, we definitely should have gotten much more than we did and that is not acceptable, Irrespective of away form.

Look at our away results in that time, the 3 wins already mentioned against Wolves, Everton and Stoke were fantastic games but then you look at the others: Losing to Fulham, Liverpool, Wigan, Spurs, Norwich, Arsenal and Drawing to Swansea. Obviously this is better than the home record but anything was and the Losses to Fulham, Wigan and Norwich are really jarring looking back.

At the end of the day, you look at hughes' form and you can see a much more cohesive strategy in play with wins against Wigan, Liverpool, Arsenal, Swansea, Spurs, Stoke at home and a draw against Everton. Disappointing results initially weren't ignored, losing to Wolves and Fulham is also a big disappointment at home and when matched with 1 away point only against Aston Villa, but bear in mind the unfair Loss to Bolton was a catalyst in the uncertainty towards the end and you have to say that in each of their half seasons that year alone, Hughes showed an understanding of what was needed and did his job as needed. The following season was awful as we all know but in that period alone, there is proof that Warnock would not have kept us up as he could not get the home results we needed in a dog fight. He's a fantastic championship manager but he cannot be a long term solution to a club aiming for the premier league.

Unfortunately, its all speculation. Can throw all the stats out in the world, no1 will ever know if Warnock would have kept us up or not.

do remember Hughes comments after the season though of "we will never be in this situation again".....wan*er

[jmelanie]

Unfortunately, its all speculation. Can throw all the stats out in the world, no1 will ever know if Warnock would have kept us up or not.

do remember Hughes comments after the season though of "we will never be in this situation again".....wan*er

He was right (Hughes) we were in a worse situation.

[hal9thou]

Very belatedly caught up with this. I just think otherwise intelligent posters suspend their rationality when it comes to JFH.

Just because he's young and succeeded at a lower level is no guarantee of success at this level, far less of him being in charge in five years time.

For me it's really simple. At the time NW was overlooked and JFH appointed, promotion was still the club's stated goal. Ramsey was sacked because it was felt that he was unlkely to acheive it. IMO, as stated at the time, NW was a more rational choice in terms of achieving this goal and there is a lot of data which supports this view.

It is OK to support a club and have serious reservations. It is not OK to close down debate concerning those reservations on a forum - 77s positions vs the mod was totally justified. This place does not feel like an open environment.

there is proof that Warnock would not have kept us up

Erm no there is not. There is a massive difference between proof and hypothesis and as a stats man you know that very well.

[Shepherds Mush]

Cannot wait to see who finishes higher in the League next season...JFH v NW

[hal9thou]

Cannot wait to see who finishes higher in the League next season...JFH v NW

Factoring in cost of playing staff (wages / fees).

[Bill]

Very belatedly caught up with this. I just think otherwise intelligent posters suspend their rationality when it comes to JFH.

Just because he's young and succeeded at a lower level is no guarantee of success at this level, far less of him being in charge in five years time.

For me it's really simple. At the time NW was overlooked and JFH appointed, promotion was still the club's stated goal. Ramsey was sacked because it was felt that he was unlkely to acheive it. IMO, as stated at the time, NW was a more rational choice in terms of achieving this goal and there is a lot of data which supports this view.

It is OK to support a club and have serious reservations. It is not OK to close down debate concerning those reservations on a forum - 77s positions vs the mod was totally justified. This place does not feel like an open environment.



Erm no there is not. There is a massive difference between proof and hypothesis and as a stats man you know that very well.

[1QPRDK]

Maybe there wasn't 1 reason why we stayed up or even why we were relegated the subsequent season but rather a combination of various things.

Will you stop that immediately Hove. I need to go and change my pants now.

[Hubble]

Very belatedly caught up with this. I just think otherwise intelligent posters suspend their rationality when it comes to JFH.

Just because he's young and succeeded at a lower level is no guarantee of success at this level, far less of him being in charge in five years time.

For me it's really simple. At the time NW was overlooked and JFH appointed, promotion was still the club's stated goal. Ramsey was sacked because it was felt that he was unlkely to acheive it. IMO, as stated at the time, NW was a more rational choice in terms of achieving this goal and there is a lot of data which supports this view.

It is OK to support a club and have serious reservations. It is not OK to close down debate concerning those reservations on a forum - 77s positions vs the mod was totally justified. This place does not feel like an open environment.



Erm no there is not. There is a massive difference between proof and hypothesis and as a stats man you know that very well.

Erm, although 77 and I have sorted it out between ourselves, it was not "totally justified" since I was not "trying to close down debate", I really wish you wouldn't perpetuate something that is patently untrue. I was - quite evidently, if you read what I wrote - expressing a frustration at reading endless discussions about WHAT IF NW had stayed. Since the plain fact is, he didn't. End of. Whether you think he was a 'more rational choice' or not is completely irrelevant. It's a done deal. And, it's been discussed ad nauseum already. So what exactly do you think you've added, other than expressing your opinion? We will never know whether Neil was the right choice or not, but there are just as many rational arguments to say he wasn't than there are to say he was. It is an unprovable hypothesis. Don't you think, therefore, that it's all rather futile? And for the record, I was and am a massive fan of Neil's, was gutted when he was booted out halfway through our first season back in the Prem and was very happy when he returned for his short stint with us this season. But I never felt he was a man for the long-term future of this club this time round, and nothing has changed my mind about that.

And if 'this place' doesn't feel like an open environment, that's in your mind. It is not a reality.

[MYU]

The mistake I made was asking the two questions in one thread, should've had two separate threads and we could've stayed on topic.

[amusant]

I have never said that. Kindly read my posts. The truth is that no one will ever know that.

I said that he was not sacked purely for footballing reasons. TF, fresh into the role and, by his own admission, was naive at the time and made mistakes. He'd allowed outside influences to turn his head into getting Beard to sack NW - underhand tactics by Joorabchian and his cohorts, plus a minority of very vocal R's supporters. The majority of our fans wanted Warnock given more time to turn things around, and to at least be given a full transfer window (January) to get his 1st choice targets. Hughes had been given virtually an open cheque-book to go and sign all his 1st choices. Warnock was never afforded such a luxury - his signings were all his 2nd or 3rd choices due to the 11th hour takeover. I could of course go into a lot more detail but that's covering VERY old ground now.
.

I made exactly that point in a reply to one of Dave MacIntyre's articles that was being negative about Warnock, a few years back. He replied quite aggressively saying that it wasn't the case that Warnock's signings were made because all of the good players had already gone - then made some cryptic comment about you'll never know and failed to explain himself ???

[Ramsey is god]

Erm, although 77 and I have sorted it out between ourselves, it was not "totally justified" since I was not "trying to close down debate", I really wish you wouldn't perpetuate something that is patently untrue. I was - quite evidently, if you read what I wrote - expressing a frustration at reading endless discussions about WHAT IF NW had stayed. Since the plain fact is, he didn't. End of. Whether you think he was a 'more rational choice' or not is completely irrelevant. It's a done deal. And, it's been discussed ad nauseum already. So what exactly do you think you've added, other than expressing your opinion? We will never know whether Neil was the right choice or not, but there are just as many rational arguments to say he wasn't than there are to say he was. It is an unprovable hypothesis. Don't you think, therefore, that it's all rather futile? And for the record, I was and am a massive fan of Neil's, was gutted when he was booted out halfway through our first season back in the Prem and was very happy when he returned for his short stint with us this season. But I never felt he was a man for the long-term future of this club this time round, and nothing has changed my mind about that.

And if 'this place' doesn't feel like an open environment, that's in your mind. It is not a reality.

All of this would seem to be your opinion, which you are of course entitled to, but do agree with 77 here, you do try to close down debate when it differs to your opinion.

[Shepherds Mush]

Factoring in cost of playing staff (wages / fees).

Irrelevant...Leicester are proof of that.

[Hubble]

All of this would seem to be your opinion, which you are of course entitled to, but do agree with 77 here, you do try to close down debate when it differs to your opinion.

It's not my opinion - it's a fact, I don't! you seem to be conflating having a strong opinion with trying to close down debate, as does Hal. Big difference. For the record, I have NO interest in closing down debate. Far from it. I like debate. It's the lifeblood of this forum and all discourse. So, no, basically, I don't. Although of course, you also are entitled to your opinion. And in point of fact, that's now three of you in this thread who've tried to close me down. Aren't I also entitled to my opinion? Shall we call it a day on this particular aspect now? Because I am sincerely bored of having to defend myself.

[Southport]

Shall we call it a day on this particular aspect now? Because I am sincerely bored of having to defend myself.

For the record, I have NO interest in closing down debate. Far from it. I like debate. It's the lifeblood of this forum and all discourse.

I might be coming across pedantic here, but you ask to call it a day in part of your comment (i.e. closing down a debate) whilst also claiming that you have no interest in closing down a debate. I know that the fans are split between those who wanted NW as manager and those who are supporting JFH, but there have been times when expressing support for NW has meant that you have been portrayed as disloyal to the club which is disappointing (not necessarily by you)