Tony Fernandes signs Times 'REMAIN' EU letter

[dave58]

If UK leaves, harder to sign players like Polter I would have thought.

You've put the greatest case to leave!!

[dave58]

[QUOTE=FurtiveFox;1520728]Interesting use of phrase scaremongering considering the almost hysterical tone of the anti EU movement in recent years!

1. Our medical profession would collapse without immigration; albeit acknowledge that much of that additional skillset comes from outside the EU.

My friend it's not about banning immigration it's about controlled immigration allowing the correct people in with the correct skills needed no matter where they come from, instead of just having an open door policy to all from the EU, many of who we do not need, as we know there are many other nationalities who work in this country ( especially in the NHS) who bring something to the table, but one of the main problems is a Doctor from Australia and USA have trouble getting in ( which is the kind of people we should encourage to come,) but when a unskilled EU citizen can just walk in and become a drain on the country. and do you really believe they should be able to claim for their family living outside of the U.K?

[NW_Hoopz]

There are positive advantages to immigration.

1. Our medical profession would collapse without immigration; albeit acknowledge that much of that additional skillset comes from outside the EU.
.

I'm afraid you've brought into #ProjectFear & the scaremongering tactics used to control the population although you have answered your own statement.

"The NHS will shut down" is the new "RACIST" that the media use to shout at people if we try & rationally discuss fears about immigration.

It WILL be used on tomorrow nights BBC Questiontime, along with other terms

In fact lets start a sweepstake on here;

NHS shutdown x 4
Safer x 15
Stronger x 18
Leap into the dark x 9
Terrorism prevention x 5
Is my guess .......

No one apart from complete far right knuckle draggers is suggesting NO IMMIGRATION .......
Controlled immigration allows the country to 'import' whatever educated people we need whether they are Doctors or Carpenters.

BUT as I stated earlier Norway still had open doors forced on them by their government so don't vote #Brexit thinking they will control the borders .......

[Stanley]

I don't know nearly enough about it to really form a proper opinion. The obvious opinion is to want out given the mass immigration issue, however I have no idea how (if at all?) this would affect our economy in terms of trading and business? Hubble / Stanley / Bluehoop / any other clever sod care to share some info on it?!

100% OUT for me Matty. I've still yet to see a single clear and convincing reason to be in it. Aside from all the good reasons others have posted above, the EU gravy-train is rife with corruption with its so-called leaders' snouts in the trough and high on the hog. It's strangled by bureaucracy, technocracy, red-tape and hasn't balanced its books for how many years now? How have they been allowed to get away with that, you have to question and immediately be suspicious about. Yes of course you have corruption in Westminster too but at least it's closer to home, easier to monitor and be challenged.

As for the immigration debate, absolutely no reason why we can't we still have controlled immigration without being members, as history has proved.

In principle and philosophy alone, the idea of a united Europe is a fine one that makes good sense. In practise and reality it's a very different story. My skeptical mind just sees it as another step towards a totalitarian world government.

My point being, the people using scaremongering words & PR are trying to influence voters like yourself who don't have a degree in economics (99.999999% of us) to keep the system that benefits them .......

Absolutely right NDubz. That's why they deliberately try and use language and rhetoric to confuse us. Let's not be fooled.

Cameron's watered down deal deal isn't worth the paper it's written on even after our referendum the European court of justice and the European commission can scupper his deal by calling it illegal and not within EU rules and then we'll have no redress as we would have already voted to stay, there will lots of scare mongering from the in campaign of how worse off we'll be, the only way for real change is to vote out.

Spot on Dave58. I don't trust Cameron one iota.

As a Tory voter I was very disappointed with Cameron and his so called deal. No real safeguards against mass immigration and no further powers away from the EU, which to me is some sort of gravy boat for powers that be. The fact it took till the last minute to get a deal done suggests the EU were playing hardball. Personally I'd be inclined to stick 2 fingers up at the whole lot of them.

I'm voting out. We're an independent nation, surrounded by Water, we're different to the rest of Europe. We can create our own trade deals with EU countries one by one, as well as creating new ones with non-EU countries Ie. the BRICS countries and our Commonwealth allies. I'm proud to be European, my wife is Polish but that doesn't mean we need to be stragled at the EU projest goes down the toilet.

Vote out.

I voted no in 1975 and will do again and it has little to do with the little Englander argument or immigration It is for me about what is fair; so I can’t bring myself to support a transnational institution which is there for business and very little there by way of the ordinary citizen. Both sides will use the fear factor and neither side can prove nor will they ever be able to prove their figures
In 1975 the EEU was propping up small farming businesses in the form of substantial subsides which the Centre Right parties in Europe depended upon for their vote. This was supposedly due to cheaper costs from outside EEU and to have self sufficiency. At the same time the UK coal, car manufacturing, ship building and steel industry going to wall due to cheaper costs outside Europe but with no state support. This is still the case in the EU now and what is left of steel making continues to shrink, whilst farming subsides continue in order to maintain a right wing political elite often linked to large business interests.
I was shocked last year when I walked into a hotel in another EU Country to see proudly on display a plaque unveiled celebrating that it had received funds from the EU to convert to solar energy. So private businesses are supported by the tax payer for their energy costs when there is fuel poverty, here and elsewhere in Europe for the those who are the most disadvantaged in society. An association that cannot have its accounts signed off, with fraud on a massive scale and a Commission workforce with salaries and pensions to die for. I'm all for free trade and if there is a Brexit which I don't think there will be, are people really going to say trade stops, no it will continue in some shape or form if only for the following which are facts and from the ONS on UK/EU trade as of this time last year: UK Exports for February 2015 are £11.0 billion. EU Imports for February 2015 are £17.9 billion. The net trade deficit was more or less consistent each month for the previous 12 months, so the EU made the concessions as it has more to lose both in terms of trade and that the UK taxpayer is a net contributer to the tune of circa £8.1bn pa.

Great post Leveller.

[NW_Hoopz]

"Absolutely right NDubz. That's why they deliberately try and use language and rhetoric to confuse us. Let's not be fooled.#"

Cheers Stanley ..........

Of course that leads us nicely into a blast of The Who "Here comes the new boss ......... same as the old boss .......... won't get fooled again"

https://youtu.be/zYMD_W_r3Fg

[FurtiveFox]

I'm afraid you've brought into #ProjectFear & the scaremongering tactics used to control the population although you have answered your own statement.

"The NHS will shut down" is the new "RACIST" that the media use to shout at people if we try & rationally discuss fears about immigration.

It WILL be used on tomorrow nights BBC Questiontime, along with other terms

In fact lets start a sweepstake on here;

NHS shutdown x 4
Safer x 15
Stronger x 18
Leap into the dark x 9
Terrorism prevention x 5
Is my guess .......

No one apart from complete far right knuckle draggers is suggesting NO IMMIGRATION .......
Controlled immigration allows the country to 'import' whatever educated people we need whether they are Doctors or Carpenters.

BUT as I stated earlier Norway still had open doors forced on them by their government so don't vote #Brexit thinking they will control the borders .......

I'm not particularly fussed on NHS. Is a disaster even with immigrant staff. If I need anything I go private. Was thinking mainly of others. If you take out a lump of the foreign nationals you take a service already on it's knees that bit further down.

If you look at my anti-EU points I agree on controlled immigration. Open door doesn't work for those countries nearer the top of the food chain in the EU such as us.

[bakes8]

This is actually decent debate. Well done chaps.

[QPR Richard]

I've been involved in the Eurosceptic movement for over 20 years and I'm glad we've finally got a referendum on the subject. The EU is all about the creation of a European superstate. Why else would it need an anthem, a flag, a currency, a parliament, a court, a constitution (called the Lisbon Treaty)?

There's another thing that's been hidden. As part of the renegotiation, the Germans want the creation of an EU army. The idea is to co-ordinate the member states armed forces.

Stay part of this and we will lose our independence permanently.

[QPR Richard]

By the way, TF is totally wrong on this.

[bakes8]

What is wrong with celebrating diversity? I love the fact we're part of Europe and we're all different with different languages, economies and lifestyles. Why do we all have to be put under one Federal European umbrella and pretend we're all the same, needs the same, act the same and are treated accordingly because make no bones about it, that's what the EU wants to do.

[NW_Hoopz]

I've been involved in the Eurosceptic movement for
over 20 years and I'm glad we've finally got a referendum on the subject. The EU is all about the creation of a European superstate. Why else would it need an anthem, a flag, a currency, a parliament, a court, a constitution (called the Lisbon Treaty)?

There's another thing that's been hidden. As part of the renegotiation, the Germans want the creation of an EU army. The idea is to co-ordinate the member states armed forces.

Stay part of this and we will lose our independence permanently.

Need A parliament ?
The cheeky ####ers spend billions on moving it between 2 parliaments .........

Glad we finally agree on one thing Richard !

By the way, TF is totally wrong on this.

Only this ? ? ? ?

;-)

[Hubble]

This is actually decent debate. Well done chaps.

Agreed, excellent debate, some very interesting and well put points from everyone. Leveller, your argument is very persuasive. My fear of a Brexit is that we end up with the Murdoch/Johnson cabal ruling us serfs with no one to intervene. In practise, I absolutely agree with the idea of retaining our sovereignty over our own affairs, but in reality, in a globalised world, what is a sovereign state any more? When most of our industry and utilities are already foreign-owned, what kind of State would we become? To be quite honest, right now, I can't decide which option is best.

[lymehoop]

and let's not forget 3 million jobs will be lost always being quoted

[CroydonCaptainJack]

Interesting use of phrase scaremongering considering the almost hysterical tone of the anti EU movement in recent years!

Is a difficult issue and need to take the emotion out of it. Two things I don't like about EU.

1. Lack of meaningful border controls. And I mean for all EU countries not just us. There needs to be some freedom of movement but not a free for all.
2. The dilution of the group. To put it in basic terms too many rubbish countries being allowed membership. Should have stuck to the more powerful nations in Europe. In my view it is the rubbish countries that cause a lot of the issues people have with it.

The argument about the EU has almost become one about immigration as a whole as much of the vitriol has focused on that one issue. There are positive advantages to immigration.

1. Our medical profession would collapse without immigration; albeit acknowledge that much of that additional skillset comes from outside the EU.
2. There is a popular misconception of business owners mint it and exploit their workers. Some do but the majority of businesses operate on tight margins. Immigration provides us with cheap labour that a hard core of British people are too lazy to do and would rather claim benefits for. People talk about paying higher wages to encourage those Brits but to do that would result in large numbers of businesses going under. When I was young I did those rubbish jobs on awful wages and worked hard to improve myself. Where is that drive in modern generations?
3. The average immigrant pays more into the system than the average Brit. Whilst there are no doubt some scroungers in the country originating from abroad this suggests the bigger problem may be home grown. I have no time for scroungers (as opposed to genuine claimants) regardless of where they happened to be born.
4. We have a skills shortage in various sectors which is alleviated in part by importing those skills.
5. As others have said by being in the EU we wield greater influence than being outside.
6. Being in the EU helps trade and allows us access to opportunities we probably wouldn't get as 'outsiders.'
7. People talk about us being able to make our own laws. In reality we don't do that anyway. We have a sham democracy. Whilst I don't always agree with European rulings it does act as a checks and balances against our own self interested parasitic politicians.

So overall not totally sold on EU membership but more for it than against it.

Good post mate.

[CroydonCaptainJack]

I've been involved in the Eurosceptic movement for over 20 years and I'm glad we've finally got a referendum on the subject. The EU is all about the creation of a European superstate. Why else would it need an anthem, a flag, a currency, a parliament, a court, a constitution (called the Lisbon Treaty)?

There's another thing that's been hidden. As part of the renegotiation, the Germans want the creation of an EU army. The idea is to co-ordinate the member states armed forces.

Stay part of this and we will lose our independence permanently.

Yes, it was always sold to us for its Economic benefits but it is political union they want for sure.