Tony Fernandes signs Times 'REMAIN' EU letter

[NW_Hoopz]

I don't know nearly enough about it to really form a proper opinion. The
obvious opinion is to
want out given the mass immigration issue, however I have no idea how (if at all?) this would affect our economy in terms of trading and business? Hubble / Stanley / Bluehoop / any other clever sod care to share some info on it?!

Concerning 'mass immigration' issue Matty, question you need to ask yourself is who benefits from it & who doesn't ?

Any company needing to sell more & more 'bread & milk' to keep their shareholders (investors) happy.

Any financial institution that needs to sell more mortgages/insurance/loans to keep their shareholders (investors) happy.

Anyone investing in buy to let property BUT did you notice that from April the government is stopping mortgage fees being offset against the tax due UNLESS you own over 10 properties (mostly investment firms/rich people) ........ funny that unless you are a cynic who believes all governments are controlled by big business, rich people & banks ..........

etc etc etc .........

Are you as a young fella benefiting from more traffic, more people using the NHS & Schools, rising house prices in London ......... so much so that key workers will never earn enough to own a property even a bedsit ?

My point being, the people using scaremongering words & PR are trying to influence voters like yourself who don't have a degree in economics (99.999999% of us) to keep the system that benefits them .......

So back to Uncle T not sure why he's sticking his oar in TBH, you'd think the majority of AirAsia business involves transporting people from Asia who need a visa to visit Europe anyway ..........

Signed not a clever sod
###X

[MattyRangers]

Concerning 'mass immigration' issue Matty, question you need to ask yourself is who benefits from it & who doesn't ?

Any company needing to sell more & more 'bread & milk' to keep their shareholders (investors) happy.

Any financial institution that needs to sell more mortgages/insurance/loans to keep their shareholders (investors) happy.

Anyone investing in buy to let property BUT did you notice that from April the government is stopping mortgage fees being offset against the tax due UNLESS you own over 10 properties (mostly investment firms/rich people) ........ funny that unless you are a cynic who believes all governments are controlled by big business, rich people & banks ..........

etc etc etc .........

Are you as a young fella benefiting from more traffic, more people using the NHS & Schools, rising house prices in London ......... so much so that key workers will never earn enough to own a property even a bedsit ?

My point being, the people using scaremongering words & PR are trying to influence voters like yourself who don't have a degree in economics (99.999999% of us) to keep the system that benefits them .......

So back to Uncle T not sure why he's sticking his oar in TBH, you'd think the majority of AirAsia business involves transporting people from Asia who need a visa to visit Europe anyway ..........

Signed not a clever sod
###X

Bl00dy hell ndubz, I think I need to start including you in the same bracket as the aforementioned "clever sods"! Cheers for the response.

Will try and do myself some information gathering on it and form myself an informed opinion!

[Hubble]

I don't know nearly enough about it to really form a proper opinion. The obvious opinion is to want out given the mass immigration issue, however I have no idea how (if at all?) this would affect our economy in terms of trading and business? Hubble / Stanley / Bluehoop / any other clever sod care to share some info on it?!

Mate, right now, I haven't a clue which way to vote. I am still trying to analyse the ramifications of both scenarios, and to be honest, its bloody difficult to come to any conclusion. I can see multiple risks and benefits to both options. By remaining in the European Union, we have more influence on how it proceeds. Since it is a vast trading area that's right on our doorstep, it's probably a good idea to be on the inside influencing policy, rather than on the outside, with far less influence.

As a trading bloc, the EU wields far, far more influence than the UK ever could on its own. My concern is that upon leaving, the UK would be left exposed. And since the massive decline in our manufacturing base, what is the UK's main industry? If I was to make a gross simplification, I'd say it was banking. The city of London provides a safe haven (i.e. safe from proper scrutiny or regulation) for the world's banking community. The benefits to the UK are a huge influx of cash that this brings, although we can see, as with all things today, the benefits seem to accrue to a minority. We are mainly a service industry country, with some manufacturing - armaments and cars for example. Given that Boris Johnson, a character I wouldn't trust as far as I can spit, is utterly in the thrall of the banking industry, I would be gravely concerned that if we left the EU, he would take over from Cameron, and the government would be free to implement extreme neo-liberal policies that already threaten to decimate our welfare state, the NHS and the many things that we have taken for granted since they were implemented by the first Labour government after the Second World War.

So in those grossly simplified terms, I see remaining in the EU as a benefit.

The model of a country that has not joined the EU, and been extremely successful is Norway. But Norway has a far smaller population that the UK, and yet has a larger share of the North Sea oil and gas licences. So Norway has benefited enormously from this in a way the UK hasn't. It also invested its income wisely. Whether being out of the EU was a benefit is hard to quantify exactly. Although Norway is not a member of the EU, it is a member of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), and has partly committed to the EU's economy and regulations. If we were like Norway, I'd probably say leaving the EU was better, but we're not. We have a huge population in comparison, and fewer resources.

What are the possible benefits of leaving the EU? Well, first and foremost obviously, is complete sovereignty over our laws and taxes and borders. In basic terms, this seems like a massive plus, in the wake of not just huge immigration from other EU countries, but also across the world and the ongoing refugee crisis. But in reality, would it be a massive plus? Again, it's incredibly hard to quantify. I'm trying to imagine the scenario if we did leave. Would the government immediately end all benefits to non-UK citizens? How would we define UK citizens? Are the mass of people who have immigrated and now live and work here UK citizens? Perhaps, if they were no longer able to receive UK benefits, they would leave. But in point of fact, is this such a huge factor? Not nearly as huge as has been made out.

If we left the EU, we would of course no longer have to pay any subsidies, but at the same time, we would no longer be in receipt of any subsidies. It's swings and roundabouts. And would we then have to sign up to EFTA to be able to trade effectively with the EU? And if we did, would we not in a significant way, still be part of the EU, and still, like the other EFTA countries, partly committed to the EU's laws and regulations?

It's extremely complex, and that's all I've got for now. I think this thread should probably moved to DTP, and we can continue the debate over there.

[NW_Hoopz]

Bl00dy hell ndubz, I think I need to start including you in the same bracket as the aforementioned
"clever sods"! Cheers for the response.

Will try and do myself some information gathering on it and form myself an informed opinion!

TBH Matty the wheels will keep turning whichever way 'we' vote .........

BTW Anyone voting #Brexit thinking we will be getting a control on immigration should think about Norway, they have had 2 referendums & voted twice not to join the EU ............
BUT their government still signed them up to the Schengen Agreement

[MattyRangers]

Mate, right now, I haven't a clue which way to vote. I am still trying to analyse the ramifications of both scenarios, and to be honest, its bloody difficult to come to any conclusion. I can see multiple risks and benefits to both options. By remaining in the European Union, we have more influence on how it proceeds. Since it is a vast trading area that's right on our doorstep, it's probably a good idea to be on the inside influencing policy, rather than on the outside, with far less influence.

As a trading bloc, the EU wields far, far more influence than the UK ever could on its own. My concern is that upon leaving, the UK would be left exposed. And since the massive decline in our manufacturing base, what is the UK's main industry? If I was to make a gross simplification, I'd say it was banking. The city of London provides a safe haven (i.e. safe from proper scrutiny or regulation) for the world's banking community. The benefits to the UK are a huge influx of cash that this brings, although we can see, as with all things today, the benefits seem to accrue to a minority. We are mainly a service industry country, with some manufacturing - armaments and cars for example. Given that Boris Johnson, a character I wouldn't trust as far as I can spit, is utterly in the thrall of the banking industry, I would be gravely concerned that if we left the EU, he would take over from Cameron, and the government would be free to implement extreme neo-liberal policies that already threaten to decimate our welfare state, the NHS and the many things that we have taken for granted since they were implemented by the first Labour government after the Second World War.

So in those grossly simplified terms, I see remaining in the EU as a benefit.

The model of a country that has not joined the EU, and been extremely successful is Norway. But Norway has a far smaller population that the UK, and yet has a larger share of the North Sea oil and gas licences. So Norway has benefited enormously from this in a way the UK hasn't. It also invested its income wisely. Whether being out of the EU was a benefit is hard to quantify exactly. Although Norway is not a member of the EU, it is a member of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), and has partly committed to the EU's economy and regulations. If we were like Norway, I'd probably say leaving the EU was better, but we're not. We have a huge population in comparison, and fewer resources.

What are the possible benefits of leaving the EU? Well, first and foremost obviously, is complete sovereignty over our laws and taxes and borders. In basic terms, this seems like a massive plus, in the wake of not just huge immigration from other EU countries, but also across the world and the ongoing refugee crisis. But in reality, would it be a massive plus? Again, it's incredibly hard to quantify. I'm trying to imagine the scenario if we did leave. Would the government immediately end all benefits to non-UK citizens? How would we define UK citizens? Are the mass of people who have immigrated and now live and work here UK citizens? Perhaps, if they were no longer able to receive UK benefits, they would leave. But in point of fact, is this such a huge factor? Not nearly as huge as has been made out.

If we left the EU, we would of course no longer have to pay any subsidies, but at the same time, we would no longer be in receipt of any subsidies. It's swings and roundabouts. And would we then have to sign up to EFTA to be able to trade effectively with the EU? And if we did, would we not in a significant way, still be part of the EU, and still, like the other EFTA countries, partly committed to the EU's laws and regulations?

It's extremely complex, and that's all I've got for now. I think this thread should probably moved to DTP, and we can continue the debate over there.

Fantastic hubs, appreciate that.

[Garyd73]

Leaving would be a major step back for us and frankly a ridiculous decision based on the scare mongering of Nigel Farage. Look at the success of Poles coming over 10-15 years ago doing jobs that the lazy Brit wouldn't do regardless of the pay, they want to work for a living on the whole and many are now returning to Poland.

Not having easy access to people with foreign language skills would kill many companies and stop them expanding or opening in the UK or moving to Europe. We have more than enough money in this country to resolve any problems it's just a lot is wasted, we should be helping out countries less fortunate than ourselves.

Look how pathetic our own governments have been with Sunday trading laws, for religious reasons shops have limited opening hours when everyone wants them open like a normal day generating more sales and employing more people. It's a win/win but just unpopular with the church.

[dave58]

Cameron's watered down deal deal isn't worth the paper it's written on even after our referendum the European court of justice and the European commission can scupper his deal by calling it illegal and not within EU rules and then we'll have no redress as we would have already voted to stay, there will lots of scare mongering from the in campaign of how worse off we'll be, the only way for real change is to vote out.

[NW_Hoopz]

Very balanced view Hubble.

Without the need for a single "Leap into the dark" "SAFER" or even "STRONGER" to brainwash us

;-)

Back to the OP why do you think Uncle T is sticking his oar in ?

[bakes8]

As a Tory voter I was very disappointed with Cameron and his so called deal. No real safeguards against mass immigration and no further powers away from the EU, which to me is some sort of gravy boat for powers that be. The fact it took till the last minute to get a deal done suggests the EU were playing hardball. Personally I'd be inclined to stick 2 fingers up at the whole lot of them.

I'm voting out. We're an independent nation, surrounded by Water, we're different to the rest of Europe. We can create our own trade deals with EU countries one by one, as well as creating new ones with non-EU countries Ie. the BRICS countries and our Commonwealth allies. I'm proud to be European, my wife is Polish but that doesn't mean we need to be stragled at the EU projest goes down the toilet.

Vote out.

[FurtiveFox]

Interesting use of phrase scaremongering considering the almost hysterical tone of the anti EU movement in recent years!

Is a difficult issue and need to take the emotion out of it. Two things I don't like about EU.

1. Lack of meaningful border controls. And I mean for all EU countries not just us. There needs to be some freedom of movement but not a free for all.
2. The dilution of the group. To put it in basic terms too many rubbish countries being allowed membership. Should have stuck to the more powerful nations in Europe. In my view it is the rubbish countries that cause a lot of the issues people have with it.

The argument about the EU has almost become one about immigration as a whole as much of the vitriol has focused on that one issue. There are positive advantages to immigration.

1. Our medical profession would collapse without immigration; albeit acknowledge that much of that additional skillset comes from outside the EU.
2. There is a popular misconception of business owners mint it and exploit their workers. Some do but the majority of businesses operate on tight margins. Immigration provides us with cheap labour that a hard core of British people are too lazy to do and would rather claim benefits for. People talk about paying higher wages to encourage those Brits but to do that would result in large numbers of businesses going under. When I was young I did those rubbish jobs on awful wages and worked hard to improve myself. Where is that drive in modern generations?
3. The average immigrant pays more into the system than the average Brit. Whilst there are no doubt some scroungers in the country originating from abroad this suggests the bigger problem may be home grown. I have no time for scroungers (as opposed to genuine claimants) regardless of where they happened to be born.
4. We have a skills shortage in various sectors which is alleviated in part by importing those skills.
5. As others have said by being in the EU we wield greater influence than being outside.
6. Being in the EU helps trade and allows us access to opportunities we probably wouldn't get as 'outsiders.'
7. People talk about us being able to make our own laws. In reality we don't do that anyway. We have a sham democracy. Whilst I don't always agree with European rulings it does act as a checks and balances against our own self interested parasitic politicians.

So overall not totally sold on EU membership but more for it than against it.

[IsleworthRanger]

I don't know nearly enough about it to really form a proper opinion. The obvious opinion is to want out given the mass immigration issue, however I have no idea how (if at all?) this would affect our economy in terms of trading and business? Hubble / Stanley / Bluehoop / any other clever sod care to share some info on it?!

Best not ask me then!!

Out for me anyway

[bushkangaroo]

If UK leaves, harder to sign players like Polter I would have thought.

[MattyRangers]

If UK leaves, harder to sign players like Polter I would have thought.

Let's leave then!!

[Bluehoop]

As flattered as I am to be included in your list of clever sods Matty, I have very little to add to the views posted. It's not a subject I have a strong view on either way because I can see the good and bad in either option and, as someone said earlier in the thread, which ever way we go, us ordinary folk will just have to live with it.

Someone did raise a good and valid point that I too would like to know the answer to, (think it was NDubz?) which is why does TF have a strong opinion. I suppose the answer is that he has UK/European business interests that are affected beyond his obvious involvement in Air Asia/Tune

[The Leveller]

I voted no in 1975 and will do again and it has little to do with the little Englander argument or immigration It is for me about what is fair; so I can’t bring myself to support a transnational institution which is there for business and very little there by way of the ordinary citizen. Both sides will use the fear factor and neither side can prove nor will they ever be able to prove their figures
In 1975 the EEU was propping up small farming businesses in the form of substantial subsides which the Centre Right parties in Europe depended upon for their vote. This was supposedly due to cheaper costs from outside EEU and to have self sufficiency. At the same time the UK coal, car manufacturing, ship building and steel industry going to wall due to cheaper costs outside Europe but with no state support. This is still the case in the EU now and what is left of steel making continues to shrink, whilst farming subsides continue in order to maintain a right wing political elite often linked to large business interests.
I was shocked last year when I walked into a hotel in another EU Country to see proudly on display a plaque unveiled celebrating that it had received funds from the EU to convert to solar energy. So private businesses are supported by the tax payer for their energy costs when there is fuel poverty, here and elsewhere in Europe for the those who are the most disadvantaged in society. An association that cannot have its accounts signed off, with fraud on a massive scale and a Commission workforce with salaries and pensions to die for. I'm all for free trade and if there is a Brexit which I don't think there will be, are people really going to say trade stops, no it will continue in some shape or form if only for the following which are facts and from the ONS on UK/EU trade as of this time last year: UK Exports for February 2015 are £11.0 billion. EU Imports for February 2015 are £17.9 billion. The net trade deficit was more or less consistent each month for the previous 12 months, so the EU made the concessions as it has more to lose both in terms of trade and that the UK taxpayer is a net contributer to the tune of circa £8.1bn pa.